“It is not easy when people start listening to all the nonsense you talk. Suddenly, there are many more opportunities and enticements than one can ever manage.”
– Michael Levitt, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 2013
In 1990 Glendon MacGregor, a restaurant waiter in Pretoria, South Africa, set up an elaborate hoax in which he posed as the crown prince of Liechtenstein to organize for himself a state visit to his own country. Amazingly, the ruse lasted for two weeks, and during that time MacGregor was wined and dined by numerous South African dignitaries. He had a blast in his home town, living it up in a posh hotel, and enjoying a trip to see the Blue Bulls in Loftus Versfeld stadium. The story is the subject of the 1993 Afrikaans film “Die Prins van Pretoria” (The Prince of Pretoria). Now, another Pretorian is at it, except this time not for two weeks but for several months. And, unlike MacGregor’s hoax, this one does not just embarrass a government and leave it with a handful of hotel and restaurant bills. This hoax risks lives.
Michael Levitt, a Stanford University Professor of structural biology and winner of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2013, wants you to believe the COVID-19 pandemic is over in the US. He claimed it ended on August 22nd, with a total of 170,000 deaths (there are now over 200,000 with hundreds of deaths per day). He claims those 170,000 deaths weren’t even COVID-19 deaths, and since the virus is not very dangerous, he suggests you infect yourself. How? He proposes you set sail on a COVID-19 cruise.
Levitt’s lunacy began with an attempt to save the world from epidemiologists. Levitt presumably figured this would not be a difficult undertaking, because, he has noted, “epidemiologists see their job not as getting things correct“. I guess he figured that he could do better than that. On February 25th of this year, at a time when there had already been 2,663 deaths due to the SARS-CoV-2 virus in China but before the World Health Organization had declared the COVID-19 outbreak a pandemic, he delivered what sounded like good news. He predicted that the virus had almost run its course, and that the final death toll in China would be 3,250. This turned out to be a somewhat optimistic prediction. As of the writing of this post (September 21, 2020), there have been 4,634 reported COVID-19 deaths in China, and there is reason to believe that the actual number of deaths has been far higher (see, e.g. He et al., 2020, Tsang et al., 2020, Wadham and Jacobs, 2020).
Instead of publishing his methods or waiting to evaluate the veracity of his claims, Levitt signed up for multiple media interviews. Emboldened by “interest in his work” (who doesn’t want to interview a Nobel laureate?), he started making more predictions of the form “COVID-19 is not a threat and the pandemic is over”. On March 20th he said that “he will be surprised if the number of deaths in Israel surpasses 10“. Unfortunately, there have been 1,256 COVID-19 deaths in Israel so far with a massive increase in cases over the past few weeks and no end to the pandemic in sight. On March 28th, when Switzerland had 197 deaths, he predicted the pandemic was almost over and would end with 250. Switzerland are now seen 1,762 deaths and a recent dramatic increase in cases has overwhelmed hospitals in some regions leading to new lockdown measures. Levitt’s predictions have come loose and fast. On June 28th he predicted deaths in Brazil would plateau at 98,000. There have been over 137,000 deaths in Brazil with hundreds of people dying every day now. In Italy he predicted on March 28th that the pandemic was past its midpoint and deaths would end at 17,000 – 20,000. There have now been 35,707 deaths in Italy. The way he described the situation in the country at the time, when crematoria were overwhelmed, was “normal”.
I became aware of Levitt’s predictions via an email list of the Fellows of the International Society of Computational Biology on March 14th. I’ve been a Fellow for 3 years, and during this time I’ve received hardly any mail, except during Fellow nomination season. It was therefore somewhat of a surprise to start receiving emails from Michael Levitt regarding COVID-19, but it was a time when scientists were scrambling to figure out how they could help with the pandemic and I was excited at the prospect of all of us learning from each other and possibly helping out. Levitt began by sending around a PDF via a Dropbox link and asked for feedback. I wrote back right away suggesting he distribute the code used to make the figures, make clear the exact versions of data he was scraping to get the results (with dates and copies so the work could be replicated), suggested he add references and noted there were several typos (e.g. the formula clearly had wrong indices). I asked that he post it on the bioRxiv so it could receive community feedback, and suggested he fill in some details so I and others could better evaluate the methods (e.g. I pointed out that I thought the use of a Gaussian for
was problematic).
The initial correspondence rapidly turned into a flurry of email on the ISCB Fellows list. Levitt was full of advice. He suggested everyone wear a mask and I and others pushed back noting, as Dr. Anthony Fauci did at the time, that there was a severe shortage of masks and they should go to doctors first. Several exchanges centered on who to blame for the pandemic (one Fellow suggested immigrants in Italy). Among all of this, there was one constant: Levitt’s COVID-19 advice and predictions kept on coming, and without reflection or response to the well-meaning critiques. After Levitt said he’d be surprised if there were more than 10 deaths in Israel, and after he refused to send code reproducing his analyses, or post a preprint, I urged my fellow Fellows in ISCB to release a statement distancing our organization from his opinions, and emphasizing the need for rigorous, reproducible work. I was admonished by two colleagues and told, in so many words, to shut up.
Meanwhile, Levitt did not shut up. In March, after talking to Israeli newspapers about how he would be surprised if there were more than 10 deaths, he spoke directly to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to deliver his message that Israel was overreacting to the virus (he tried to speak to US president Donald Trump as well). Israel is now in a very dangerous situation with COVID-19 out of control. It has the highest number of cases per capita in the world. Did Levitt play a role in this by helping to convince Netanyahu to ease restrictions in the country in May? We may never know. There were likely many factors contributing to Israel’s current tragedy but Levitt, by virtue of speaking directly to Netanyahu, should be scrutinized for his actions. What we do know is that at the time, he was making predictions about the nature and expected course of the virus with unpublished methods (i.e. not even preprinted), poorly documented data, and without any possibility for anyone to reproduce any of his work. His disgraceful scholarship has not improved in the subsequent months. He did, eventually post a preprint, but the data tab states “all data to be made available” and there is the following paragraph relating to availability of code:
We would like to make the computer codes we use available to all but these are currently written in a variety of languages that few would want to use. While Dr. Scaiewicz uses clean self-documenting Jupyter Python notebook code, Dr. Levitt still develops in a FORTRAN dialect call Mortran (Mortran 1975) that he has used since 1980. The Mortran preprocessor produces Fortran that is then converted to C-code using f2c. This code is at least a hundred-fold faster than Python code. His other favorite language is more modern, but involves the use of the now deprecated language Perl and Unix shell scripts.
Nevertheless, the methods proposed here are simple; they are easily and quickly implemented by a skilled programmer. Should there be interest, we would be happy to help others develop the code and test them against ours. We also realize that there is ample room for code optimization. Some of the things that we have considered are pre-calculating sums of terms to convert computation of the correlation coefficient from a sum over N terms to the difference of two sums. Another way to speed the code would be to use hierarchical step sizes in a binary search to find the value of lnN that gives the best straight line.
Our study involving as it did a small group working in different time zones and under extreme time pressure revealed that scientific computation nowadays faces a Babel of computer languages. In some ways this is good as we generally re-coded things rather than struggle with the favorite language of others. Still, we worry about the future of science when so many different tools are used. In this work we used Python for data wrangling and some plotting, Perl and Unix shell tools for data manipulation, Mortran (effectively C++) for the main calculations, xmgrace and gnuplot for other plotting, Excel (and Openoffice) for playing with data. And this diversity is for a group of three!
tl;dr, there is no code. I’ve asked Michael Levitt repeatedly for the code to reproduce the figures in his paper and have not received it. I can’t reproduce his plots.
Levitt now lies when confronted about his misguided and wrong prediction about COVID-19 in Israel. He claims it is a “red herring”, and that he was talking about “excess deaths”. I guess he figures he can hide behind Hebrew. There is a recording where anyone can hear him being asked directly if he is saying he will be surprised with more than 10 COVID-19 deaths in Israel, and his answers is very clear: “I will be very surprised”. It is profoundly demoralizing to discover that a person you respected is a liar, a demagogue or worse. Sadly, this has happened to me before.
Levitt continues to put people’s lives at risk by spewing lethal nonsense. He is suggesting that we should let COVID-19 spread in the population so it will mutate to be less harmful. This is nonsense. He is promoting anti-vax conspiracy theories that are nonsense. He is promoting nonsense conspiracy theories about scientists. And yet, he continues to have a prominent voice. It’s not hard to see why. The article, similar to all the others where he is interviewed, begins with “Nobel Prize winner…”
In the Talmud, in Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:9, it is written “Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world”. I thought of this when listening to an interview with Michael Levitt that took place in May, where he said:
I am a real baby-boomer, I was born in 1947, and I think we’ve really screwed up. We cause pollution, we allowed the world’s population to increase three-fold, we’ve caused the problems of global warming, we’ve left your generation with a real mess in order to save a really small number of very old people. If I was a young person now, I would say, “now you guys are gonna pay for this.”
114 comments
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September 21, 2020 at 6:24 am
aymdock
Do you have read Dr Levitt’s writings?
First of all, he got it pretty good in China, and you are speculating that he was wrong without real evidence.
Secondly, being off by 1000-2000 is amazing, considering the Neil Ferguson’s Imperial model pointed to 85,000 Covid deaths for Sweden, and they’re presently at 5,865 with 0-5 deaths/day since the beginning of August!
Thirdly, the “excess death” model is amazing, and that’s all he’s pushing, since we have to understand that ANY virus is deadly to people who have compromised health systems without any cross-immunity (via antibodies or T-Cells). The “10 deaths”….. he was wrong to explain it that way, considering that it has been pointed out multiple times that Israeli death rates in 2020 are fewer than in 2019 and the hospitals are LESS full month by month than in 2019. “Coronavirus wards” are over their capacity…. so just add beds, or stop testing everyone (more per capita than anywhere in the world) with an oversensitive test (40 cycles).
September 21, 2020 at 8:06 am
Elk Haven
Seemed like you intended to say something, and ended up saying nothing.
September 30, 2020 at 3:18 am
Xinod
=], indeed.
September 21, 2020 at 10:01 pm
TheReal Truther (@thereal_truther)
Neil Ferguson and Imperial did not produce a model for Sweden pointing to 85,000 deaths.
September 21, 2020 at 10:05 pm
MANopausing (@MANopausing)
The idea that Levitt got China right – or even close to – is predicated on YOU and the vast majority of people, having zero clue how China works.
There could be 100k more deaths than they’ve reported in China – heck 1 million more deaths than reported – and you’d have zero clue.
Whistleblowers have disappeared and there were reports of bodies of significant carnage. British intelligence – and likely others – learned back in March that China was indeed covering up, as they do everything, and had fudged their numbers. Hence one reason for England’s reaction.
Please stop with this China farce. It makes you look ignorant.
September 30, 2020 at 3:36 pm
fromoverhere
amydock,
You sound like an enabler.
I think Ferguson and most of the early flag-raisers made predictions alone the “if nothing is done” tangent.
See all of Levitt’s “Iran is half way through” predictions (below) that were sooooooo wrong! You cannot change all that to some “excess deaths” now and have us turn a blind eye.
He clearly said the virus would not affect Israel and there would be less then 10 (then 5) deaths becuse of it. It’s nowhere near over yet and they have 1,500 deaths and 700 critical.
October 20, 2020 at 4:03 am
Nura
In israel Over 2200 deaths and that is with 2 long full lockdowns!
September alone 1000 corona deaths.
August already 15% excess death rate than year before.
Imagine what the death rate will be with no lockdown , no masks…
I don’t support lockdown but what happened definitely indicates a big mistake in the predicions
November 1, 2020 at 2:17 pm
Eleftherios Pavlides
5,865 COVID 19 deaths in Sweden is horrible, NOTHING to brag about.
Both Greece and Sweden have just about 10,000,000 population.
Greece has as of today 635 COVID-19 dead while Sweden has 5,938.
This means for every 1 Greek COVID-19 death Sweden has 9 deaths.
However Greece has older population with 43.3 median age
while Sweden has younger population with 41.2 median age
(not to mention the sad part of refugees overrunning the borders – and yet there was more testing and tracing in Greek refugees camps than either Sweden of the US – I am not defending the inhuman squalor there)
Greece acted quickly, institute a $175 (€150) fine for not wearing a mask (bigger fine than for speeding because COVID-19 is more deadly) and tested and traced extensively.
5,303 Swedes would be alive today if the left wing government in Sweden had acted as responsibly as Greece’s right wing government. Or they would have saved a few hundred more people if they has acted like the left wing government in New Zealand. Politically right or left wing did not matter responsibility did matter.
Finally if you read the article Levitt acted like an unethical buffoon promising to show his data but after a lot of promising failing to make it available. Just like Trump’s taxes. It would take a New York Times investigation to extract the data.
So to answer your silly question:
“Do you have read Dr Levitt’s writings?”
NOBODY had access to unethical Levitt’s data therefore NOBODY can check the accuracy of Levitt’s writings. Enough said.
November 2, 2020 at 7:15 am
fromoverhere
Thanks ElefP!
Also Sweden is less densely populated (25 persons/ square Km) than Greece (81 per sq km).
And Sweden is more “out of the way” as Greece is a major thoroughfare in the world.
Since this is a marathon (not a sprint) disease, Sweden may do well in the long run….. but anyone boasting about them now compared to other the Nordic countries, or compared to more-dense Portugal and Greece, is way off the mark!
June 2, 2021 at 6:30 pm
Joel Miller
Unfortunately your claims are (at least in part) based on incorrect data and an incorrect understanding of how medicine works.
“considering the Neil Ferguson’s Imperial model pointed to 85,000 Covid deaths for Sweden” This is false.
Neil Ferguson in particular (and the group at Imperial College in general) did not produce any prediction for Sweden. https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1257991339364560898
“Coronavirus wards are over their capacity… so just add beds, or stop testing everyone… with an oversensitive test”
If Coronavirus wards are over capacity, adding beds is not enough – they require skilled trained medical professionals. Also, reducing testing would not prevent people from ending up in a coronavirus ward. People only end up in those wards if they are very sick. Using an oversensitive test doesn’t cause people to end up in these wards.
April 23, 2022 at 12:32 am
Mae Woods
Sorry if this has already been posted but whilst researching something else, by chance I came across a tweet. So I wanted to draw attention to something I thought was extremely concerning. Holding (potentially) junior colleagues and students accountable for a senior member of staff’s actions.
Dated Sep 19 2021
“ @lpachter
really shows his true colors in this.
@caltech
needs to control the poison Professor Lior Pachter has spread for a decade. https://twitter.com/lpachter/status/1286859557273104386?s=20…
It reflects badly on all his followers as well as on a premier university. What would Pauling & Feynman have said?”
April 23, 2022 at 1:10 am
Mae Woods
Just don’t bring kids into your fights
September 21, 2020 at 6:40 am
Lefterov, Iliya
Good morning, Lior
I read all your posts, and enjoy your writing; sometimes I am really impressed.
There are situations we can do nothing about, unfortunately: it is impossible to force people to be honest, and people like M. Levitt will continue to write BS… I moved to the USA together with my family 25 years ago, and sometimes I can’t believe there are people who “learned and distribute” so well the type of propaganda common in the former Eastern European, socialist countries. Yes, there is a right to vote, here… didn’t help in 2016, hopefully 2020 will be different.
Best, and keep writing.
-Iliya
September 21, 2020 at 6:45 am
marmico
Table 3 of Levitt’s June 30 preprint makes 14 country covid death count predictions. To date, he under predicted the deaths in all 14 countries and 7 of the 14 have death counts at least 2x higher than predicted. Argentina is particularly egregious.
Click to access 2020.06.26.20140814v2.full.pdf
September 21, 2020 at 8:30 am
OC
Your last paragraph reminds me of this wonderful very short story.
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/last-flight-doctor-ain/
September 21, 2020 at 8:53 am
Corinne
Thank you for writing this (and thank Google for the algorithm that brought it across my feed). It’s been fascinating watching Levitt on Twitter; he sometimes tweets like your grandpa and it’s adorable . . . except the substance of his tweets is, as you say, lethal nonsense. He seems to have fallen in love with his own curve-fitting, and is ignoring both the mechanisms underlying the real-life data (i.e., the actual epidemiology), as well as the divergence of his idealizations from that data. It’s an impressive example of how scientists need to stay in their own fields.
September 21, 2020 at 9:14 am
Steven Safran
I think that Levitt got it more right than most people and he admits exactly what he got wrong in this interview with Freddie Sayers. Excellent piece IMO. IMO Levitt is a lot closer to the reality of this than the pandemic planners who insisted and continue to maintain that herd immunity is at 60-80% and that millions would die. In most places that have hit 20% the pandemic is indeed over replaced by virtually no deaths or hospitalizations (despite persistent incidence of “cases” which are nothing more than positive tests on people who are not actually sick….it used to be that a “case” was a sick person and not just a positive PCR test but all that changed in 2009 with H1N1 didn’t it….) At any rate watch the interview and judge for yourself: https://unherd.com/thepost/prof-michael-levitt-heres-what-i-got-wrong/
September 30, 2020 at 3:45 pm
fromoverhere
Safran,
It is ridiculous to say that a man who got SO MANY predictions wrong (and getting worse by the day) “did better than —– insert straw man—-” with no quotes or data.
September 21, 2020 at 10:49 am
Lior Pachter
I have deleted the last two sentences so that the post now concludes with Levitt’s own words. They speak for themself.
September 21, 2020 at 1:29 pm
Jessica Levin
Ok, this definitely goes against your ‘arXiv policy’.
September 21, 2020 at 12:09 pm
Tee Ell
Full of lies such as `he suggests you infect yourself` and a load of pseudo-scientific rubbish.
Imagine how wildly out of check your ego must be to kid yourself that you’re right to be criticising a Chemistry Nobel Prize winner while being so obviously ignorant of the facts. Do one.
September 21, 2020 at 12:19 pm
Lior Pachter
The fact that he suggests people infect themselves is not in dispute. He says so himself, and I linked to the tweet where he does so in the post: https://twitter.com/MLevitt_NP2013/status/1278561306006691845?s=20
There are many other times he has said the same, e.g.
October 6, 2020 at 9:23 am
p. n. schwartz (@pn_schwartz)
in the US: around 70K college age infections, 3 hospitalizations, no deaths. He was correct: for young people of normal health, there is no risk from this. Why have them locked in their house when the normal herd immunity process helps protect the elderly?
October 6, 2020 at 9:33 am
conradseitz
The risk for adolescents is small but significant— NOT “no risk”!
“Herd immunity” is a very dangerous way to go, as many experts have said.
Other than that—-?
October 9, 2020 at 2:06 pm
fromoverhere
Hey pnschwartz,
He was right about what? Who Levitt?
Wrong about Ireland, Israel, Iran….and the US (and everybody else). “Right” that it is not as dangerous for the invincibles? Dont need a Ph.D to know that!
September 21, 2020 at 1:25 pm
Rüdiger Jungbeck
Levitt described the formula (Gompertz curve), he used to model Covid-19, so programming it is quite easy (I have done it). Curve fitting for many outbreaks works with astonishing precision over a long period of time. They fit dramatically better better than SFIR models like Fergusons Imperial College model.
But in many curves at some point the decline of the growthrate seems to stop and fluctuate around a low number or even increase again.(I don’t know why)
There are also countries (or US states) where at some point another Gompertz curve seems to start. Sometimes this shows the real outbreak (when the first outbreak was contained and another one starts (eg Germany or US states in the south)). Sometimes the reason for this is not obvious to me.
September 21, 2020 at 3:12 pm
Larry Fitzgerald
I first became interested in following Levitt when he pointed out that the CDC “excess death” data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
and
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
….was trending towards the normal 100% baseline level. Although his initial claim was not accurate due to the second wave in July-early Aug, the current data strongly agrees with his prediction in the absence of any additional CV peaks.
The underlying reason is that about 30-40% of the US and similar EU countries show pre-existing T-cell immunity due to likely prior infections with CV-like virus. Thus, the current CV19 serology (Ab+) peak levels of about 20% cross the 60% herd immunity threshold. This has been discussed:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/17/stop-continued-self-destruction-test-covid-immunity/
and
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563
…although not always correct in predicting deaths, Levitt’s info is quite interesting and points out the futility and $$$ waste of mass testing, pointless quarantining, lockdowns, and possibly the usefulness of any vaccine (it will be too late).
Running the PCR tests for CV19 to 35-40 cycles results in vastly too many cases where there is no infective virus present. Just makes $$$ for testing labs and keeping health dept people busy chasing meaningless “cases.”
February 10, 2021 at 2:47 am
Craig Foster
Thanks for this. I always had a hunch Levitt was being publicly fraudulent about saying herd immunity was just around the corner months ago while disparaging other scientists and other, more accurate models. Here we are and he’s still wrong.
September 21, 2020 at 8:10 pm
Anonymous out of Fear
“Levitt was full of advice. He suggested everyone wear a mask and I and others pushed back noting, as Dr. Anthony Fauci did at the time, that there was a severe shortage of masks and they should go to doctors first.”
Well this was correct advice no? Make one out of a t shirt?
September 21, 2020 at 8:17 pm
Lior Pachter
It was terrible advice. Doctors at the time, for example in Seattle, had to wash and re-use masks because there was not enough PPE. It is precisely because masks are so important in reducing COVID-19 transmission that it was bad advice to tell the public to wear them when none were available to medical professionals.
September 22, 2020 at 2:11 am
Rahul Siddharthan
Great post on the whole, but on this aspect Levitt was right, east Asians were right (they learned from SARS), and you and Fauci and the rest were wrong, wrong, wrong. Medical professionals need surgical marks? So the rest of us can wear cloth masks. Or just a bandana or anything to cover the mouth and nose. There was too much nonsense floating around about how ineffective cloth masks are, what percentage of viral particles they let through, etc, based on completely unrealistic assumptions. Meanwhile countries that had experienced SARS went ahead with masks, and so did Czech republic and others. In India the maskmaking industry came up in days. CDC and WHO caused enormous damage with their anti-mask stance.
September 22, 2020 at 3:49 pm
ed
Yet the core of his supporters are anti-mask. Go figure.
September 22, 2020 at 4:10 pm
Lior Pachter
Indeed. Even his son is anti-mask. https://twitter.com/daniellevitt22/status/1306291512074842112?s=20
November 18, 2020 at 7:27 pm
Robert LeChef
Lying about it was terrible. He could have said “Don’t buy masks, doctors need them. Here’s how you can make one out of a tshirt, etc.” Lying is not only intrinsically wrong (pace consequentialist psychopaths), but it has the effect of undermining confidence in the authority of the liar when the truth gets out. Fauci has himself to blame. Those who’ve politicized COVID should take a good look in the mirror (rationalizing one protest, denouncing the other).
The whole idolatrous, neoclerical spectacle surrounding the modern priest caste (i.e., “the scientists”) didn’t help.
September 21, 2020 at 9:40 pm
ACGP Timesheets
It always amazes me how Levitt’s critics pounce when he predicts the excess deaths will be over a month early or that total deaths will be 20-50% lower than in reality. Meanwhile, the modelers on the other side are off by a factor of 10 all the time and just wave it away with “I guess people changed their behavior”. Or they make huge ranges like 0.2 – 2 million people will die depending on mask use. At least Levitt is trying to come up with useful real world numbers.
September 21, 2020 at 10:10 pm
MANopausing (@MANopausing)
Back in March, Levitt predicted the U.S. would far better than China. Is that too soon to call?
Fyi the “modelers on the other side” have almost consistently made predictions based on “if no measures were taken, this could be the potential death toll.” (ie Ferguson)
They’re essentially moot.
It’s not that Levitt has blown all of his predictions. It’s that he blew them in so little time.
September 30, 2020 at 3:54 pm
fromoverhere
Well said Mano!
Levitt clearly said the Iran was half way through in March.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-03-22/coronavirus-outbreak-nobel-laureate
They had 1,800 deaths and they have (still climbing!) 26,000 now.
What are these folks constantly protecting Levitt from his massive mistakes?
September 22, 2020 at 7:30 am
Squawkinghead
I don’t think anyone here is really looking at the facts. The hospitals are not overrun. The numbers were coming down before masks and lock down.
The virus, which we thought was a 10% killer, is not.
We had a quiet 2019 flu season, unfortunately the old (85 yrs+) bore the brunt of this new pathogen and sadly died.
We have overreacted. But you know what, the world needed to change. Shame about all of the litter being created by the masks.
September 30, 2020 at 3:57 pm
fromoverhere
Ridiculous post Squawking,
As if the only reason that it is not just dropping off the chart all by itself is cuz of distancing and masks.
Yep going off a each living in our caves sure does spread this thing!
September 24, 2020 at 12:01 pm
conradseitz
Like you, Lior Pachter, I am deeply dismayed by the spreaders of “lethal nonsense” and I support your expose of Michael Levitt. His having a Nobel in Chemistry (not epidemiology!) doesn’t make him infallible. Far from it. I’m no expert in anything (just an old GP), but it doesn’t take an expert to see that he is using wrong assumptions.
That Gompertz curve again! (which is really just a sigmoid curve, a basic item in biology that describes so many things)– unfortunately, it doesn’t describe the pandemic unless you use the correct asymptotes. The upper asymptote is 100% infection of the entire population, not some manufactured maximum that is arbitrarily assigned based on curve fitting after lockdowns.
The Gompertz curve is also used by this nonsense-spreading YouTube video maker: (I won’t write the link for fear of spreading nonsense.) The video maker also references the “quiet flu season” of 2019 and “sadly died” in almost exactly the same words as “Squawkinghead” — so I think he’s already been infected by that video– his name is Ivor Cummins but I won’t give you a link because I don’t want it to spread any further. If you insist, Google “Viral Issue Crucial Update” for Sept 8…
I see again that someone else has claimed, incorrectly, that there is a percentage of the population that is immune due to prior infection with URI (common cold) coronaviruses– (Dr. Rand Paul made this claim to Dr. Fauci in the Senate the other day and was promptly shot down) This is wrong, as a quick Google search will reveal. There are a few antibodies in some of the general population, but they’re not neutralizing antibodies, which is the critical type.
“I don’t think anyone here is really looking at the facts.” Really? Many hospitals have in fact been over-run and will be again if there’s another big wave. Check out the situation in southern Texas for example.
The virus was never a 10% killer– the apparently high case fatality rate early on was an artifact of the ascertained cases being far worse than the average, inapparent case.
Doesn’t anybody remember Linus Pauling and his nonsense with Vitamin C?
November 13, 2020 at 6:38 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Wow. Ivor Cummins is one of the few people who has spoken much sense about this.
In Ireland (and this is a real observation not a model prediction) 95% of the 1900 people who died of covid did not get into an ICU unit. Not because they were overrun but because the people infected were so old and sick anyway there was no point in putting them on ICU. It would have been a waste of resource which pretty much the whole response to this pandemic has been.
In the real world, very few curves or mathematical formulae explain anything. There are no curves. Just complexity, randomness, non-gaussian distribution. No curve will describe the pandemic.
Hospitals get over run all the time. It’s not news and you are confusing observing something with it having significance.
But here is some news on flu overwhelming hospitals and people being treated in tents:
https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patients/
Wow. And that was just a couple of years ago. Did we have lockdowns to flatten the curve then, I can’t remember?
Looks like you were wrong about pre-existing immunity as well
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563/rr-6
It would appear that people like you are the danger. You are spreading misinformation not people like Ivor Cummings.
September 29, 2020 at 12:30 pm
fromoverhere
Thanks for debunking Dr Levitt.
He said it would be over in India by October
https://thefederal.com/pandemic-1-mn-in-india/when-will-covid-19-pandemic-end-two-months-or-so-says-levitts-model/
On March 22, he said Iran was passed the half way mark.
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-03-22/coronavirus-outbreak-nobel-laureate
They had 1,812 deaths at that time….and 26,000 now.
On May 10th he said Ireland had 2 more weeks.
On May 23rd, he said that the UK,“would emerge from Covid-19 within weeks.”
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/05/24/nobel-prize-winner-believes-uk-lockdown-saved-no-lives-and-may-have-actually-cost-them/
Every time he is wrong, he just makes another predictions and moves on.
September 29, 2020 at 12:38 pm
Lior Pachter
Thanks for adding a record of these to the post.
October 5, 2020 at 11:07 am
Johann Gizurarson
There is thing called the Nobel disease (see: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease). Its caused by receiving the nobel prize which in turn translates into some recipients (a minority fortunetly) to either embrace pseudoscience or bizarre alternative views.
October 6, 2020 at 12:45 pm
conradseitz
Thanks for reference to “Nobel disease”— I knew it existed but didn’t know it was a named disease. Nothing “really exists” unless it has a name. Odd but seems to be true. Thanks again, Johann Gizurarson.
October 14, 2020 at 2:36 pm
Johann G. K. Gizurarson
My pleasure. It so sad to witness great scientist to be led into fields which they seem not to be so keen on afterall. In particular:
1) Predicting over and over again wrongly and each time expecting a right prediction.
2) Ignoring long covid or post-covid syndrome
3) Embracing an unproven stratergy called ,,focused” protection. Very hard to follow given so many asymptomatic spreaders. Im refering to the great barrington declaration.
October 5, 2020 at 9:04 pm
Lior Pachter
Michael Levitt has tweeted out the ISCB list email I referred to above, confirming what I state in this blog post. https://tweetstamp.org/1313328350178410496
October 6, 2020 at 11:14 am
Itsik Pe'er
While Levitt’s statement on Italy being past the midpoint was twitted on 3-28, he is quoted as early as 3-20 for “Italy is already half way through the disease”, at 2503 deaths (on the JPost paper you cite for his Israel prediction)
October 6, 2020 at 11:33 am
Lior Pachter
Thanks for pointing this out. Sadly, there have been 323 deaths in Italy just since I wrote my blog post. The total is now at 36,030.
October 9, 2020 at 3:56 pm
Stefan Müller
As predicted by Professor Michael Levitt, the death rate in allmost every European country is falling since March/April despite different forms of Lockdown or nearly no Lockdown like in Sweden: https://bit.ly/3ltqjNc
Other European countries:
https://t.co/BDjPVDbAK2?amp=1
And Prof. Levitt is not alone: https://unherd.com/2020/10/covid-experts-there-is-another-way/
October 10, 2020 at 3:31 pm
despondent
I find Prof. Levitt relatively innocuous, a retired scientist with some delusion issues, obviously outside his field of expertise, talking about “straight line” models using language bordering statistical analphabetism, unable to publish anything in the normal sense of the term. The dangerous ones are the Joannidis, the Bhattacharyas of the world, with more relevant qualifications, still writing real papers, with the resources to perform legit looking serology experiments. Watch prof. Bhattacharaya participating in a joint appeal with other real scientists calling for a different, “ethical” approach to the pandemic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE. The real danger is the WHO saying that travel restrictions don’t work or that masks don’t work, two battle-tested infectious disease control measures. These people or orgs with real credentials and authority, with impressive, relevant track records, those are the real danger when they lie out of their breaths to please a funder, or yielding to political pressure, or whatever. If you are a polymath like Lior you can just go, read the papers, think for yourself. If you are Joe Shmoe with some random unrelated college degree or not even that, and you hear two card-carrying scientists blurting out numbers and reaching two opposite conclusions, how are you going to filter out the lies? So albeit I agree with about 110% of this critique, it seems to me Prof. Levitt is easy pickings, relatively small fish, albeit Noble prize fish. There are many scientists doing more damage that should know much better, and I hope a day of reckoning will come for them. I would love for Lior to write a comprehensive take-down of these dangerous ideas, rather than focusing on his current foe, as he seems inclined to do. I would do it myself, but I have problem convincing my wife that this is no ordinary disease.
October 10, 2020 at 3:37 pm
despondent
By the way, the video is related to the organization pointed to by other reader Stefan Muller, but I discovered it just because google decided to recommend it to me on youtube, assuming I suppose that as a retired scientist I would enjoy a little pseudo-science talk show. And while we are at it, since most of Europe is going through the second wave now, are you Stefan satisfied that Mr. Levitt predictions are completely wrong or is it like the end of the world, an unfalsifiable prediction by design? Since the pandemic will end one day and Prof. Levitt predicted it, then one day he’ll be right and everyone else will be wrong, or dead, and until then, like a end-of-the-world believer, he can not be proven wrong. Sweet deal, not wrong until proven right.
October 10, 2020 at 4:07 pm
conradseitz
Yes, “the world will end” is an unfalsifiable prediction, just like “you are going to die.” I once said someone was going to die, and a nurse replied, “Yes, but when?” No points for making a prediction that inevitably comes true… eventually.
October 14, 2020 at 1:21 pm
Jules Clary
There’s no substance to Lior’s post. Covid deaths are way down virtually all over. Don’t believe me? Do your homework. If you do, you will see that daily deaths (seven day moving average) in the major European nations (UK, France, Italy, Spain, and German), are down 93% from their peak. Deaths in the northeastern US states hit hard by Covid are down 97%. Daily deaths in the entire US are down 80%. The Swedes have stopped dying from Covid – daily deaths are now 1 per day and the Swedes have closed down their medical facilities that treat Covid for lack of patients. There was a “huge outbreak” of Covid at the University of Alabama (2,000 or so “cases) about a month ago: no one has died, no one has been hospitalized, virtually no one is sick. How is this possible? Likely, because all of these “cases” are bogus due to defective PCR testing, which yields up to 90% false positives (see NYT front page, August 29). The supposed upsurge in cases, which has not been matched by an upsurge in deaths, is likely due to an increasing number of bogus PCR tests. This isn’t to say that there isn’t more dying that will take place – there are pockets where the virus hasn’t hit such as areas in Spain – but clearly we’re on the downside. There is no scientific basis for a so-called “second wave,” which occurs with influenza, but not coronavirus epidemics. So let’s stop this crazy Covid hysteria and the slide into economic, social, and cultural suicide.
October 14, 2020 at 1:39 pm
Lior Pachter
You cite numbers that are unfortunately not correct. I wish they were but… deaths in Spain, for example, are lower than the peak but not 93% down. There are ~200 people dying there per day. At the peak the average was ~600. In between they were close to 0. France has gone from about a dozen deaths per day in July to around 100 per day now. Yes, the peak in France saw deaths ~1,000 per day and sadly the current rate of increase in cases and deaths bodes very badly. Which is presumably why Macron just announced a four-week curfew. In Israel the situation is much worse than that. The initial wave saw ~10 deaths per day. Now it’s an order of magnitude more. You mentioned Alabama… 36 people died there just a week ago (Oct. 8th). The first time the state hit that many deaths was mid-July. Of course death rates are lower on campuses. That’s because students are young. This has nothing to do with bogus PCR tests. Their infections are dangerous because they can, and sometime do, infect others who are not as young.
I do my homework. Do yours.
October 14, 2020 at 5:57 pm
Jules Clary
Lior – Sorry, you’re off base. Let’s look at Spain. Spain has had a huge spiking in cases, likely based on bogus tests – in fact, on September 17, there were 10,600 cases, the most of any day in the “pandemic.” Deaths? Well, the latest (seven day moving average) is 102, an 88% reduction from the peak. France, which you also cite: There has also been a huge spiking in reported cases, in fact October 10, with 26,900, was the highest since the “pandemic” started. Deaths – not so much; the latest moving average is 81, a 92% reduction from the peak. Neither Spain nor France contradict what I originally stated. My comment on Alabama was restricted to university students, demonstrating that “cases” have nothing to do with “sickness.” The grand total for the state (again, seven day moving average) is 12 daily deaths. Covid is rapidly losing is lethality and the increase in “cases” is highly misleading, though undoubtedly there will be considerable more deaths
October 14, 2020 at 2:18 pm
conradseitz
Thanks again, Lior Pachter.
I think that Jules Clary has made several errors in their comment, some of fact and some of interpretation. For example, this New York TImes article (according to their web site, it was on page A6 on August 29, not the “front page”– maybe it started on the front page?) is apparently the one to which Clary refers:
Here is the paragraph which Jules Clary refers to as “bogus” cases and “up to 90% false positive”:
“In three sets of testing data that include cycle thresholds, compiled by officials in Massachusetts, New York and Nevada, up to 90 percent of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Times found.”
So the “false positive” is Clary’s interpretation of a low (high) cycle threshold, which is an issue, but hardly one of a “false positive”– in reality, it may relate to one of several conditions: a too-small sample, a very small amount of virus in an adequate sample, a small amount of virus in an adequate sample due to the fact that the patient was shedding only very slightly at the time of the test, etc. etc.
The article includes an extensive discussion of cycle threshold and whether people with high cycle positives (ie, low virus numbers) are in fact infectious– and whether the cycle number should be included in the test report.
Nowhere in the NYT article does the phrase “false positive” appear.
I think Jules Clary’s level of reading comprehension leaves something to be desired, or else the subject is too complex for them (I’m using nonbinary pronouns here, as is the new fashion.)
October 14, 2020 at 2:20 pm
conradseitz
Sorry, that link didn’t come across in my comment the way I intended it to.
October 14, 2020 at 7:16 pm
Jules Clary
You must be kidding! Says the Times article: “In three sets of testing data that include cycle thresholds, compiled by officials in Massachusetts, New York and Nevada, up to 90% of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Time found” The article goes on to state that nation-wide of the 45,604 new cases identified that Thursday, “perhaps only 4,500 of those people may need to isolate and submit to contact testing.” I haven’t cherry-picked the article – there’s no doubt whatsoever that it indicates, with comments by noted virologists and epidemiologists, that the percentage of cases identified through PCR testing has been vastly overstated. The article identifies how this has likely occurred.
October 14, 2020 at 9:03 pm
conradseitz
Each of those tests, that showed barely any virus, was only a single test in a single subject. Without repeating the test in the same subject over several days in a row (which was NOT done), there is no way to know whether the small amount seen was merely a precursor or follower to a larger amount, or the largest amount that would be found in that subject during the course of that infection. No correlation with symptoms was recorded. Would you like to perform that experiment for us? If not, then you are jumping to conclusions.
Another point: there is no certain knowledge of how large an inoculum (how many virus particles) is required to transmit an infection. Would you like to enlighten us on this subject?
Without certain knowledge about these points, you are merely speculating that you have come to the right conclusion: that ninety percent of those positives are “false positive” or “bogus” in your words. Only time will tell. I don’t think so, and neither do most people. Isolation, masks, contact tracing, hand washing, and physical distancing are still critical. Your point exactly? That we don’t need any isolation? That would inevitably lead back to where we were in New York last spring. And where we are in North Dakota and Montana and Wyoming right now, running out of intensive care beds with supposedly “bogus” infections.
I don’t buy your numbers, as Lior Pachter has said, because I have seen the same numbers he does, not the numbers you claim, and I don’t agree that small amounts of virus in isolates are false positives. In fact, the problem with nasopharyngeal RT-PCR is the high rate of false negatives: take a look at that for a minute in the early BioRxiv papers. They indicate that only bronchoalveolar lavage leads to higher than ninety percent true positive RT-PCR. Nowhere in that NYT article does it say “false positives” and no one has said that high cycle thresholds indicate a false positive test– merely a small viral load in the sample for not-yet established reasons.
October 15, 2020 at 12:15 pm
fromoverhere
But why are we caring with Clary says? If he stayed on the topic of this article, he would have to admit that Levitt was wrong on Iran, Israel, Ireland, Italy, and the US….by a mile….and still going.
Clary’s point basically: “cases are up —cuz tests are wrong…and deaths are down (if you look at the past low spot from the peak).”
And? That proves what? It proves that deaths did go down at one point.
But, if deaths continue to rise (looks like they are), Clary’s next move will be ….they are just pneumonia, lung issues, “bad year for asthma” etc.
First death in the US was March 16th (7 months tomorrow). There are 15,200 serious US cases now and that number remains contstant.
The key is what is killing these “extra death” people (and continues to do so) at this rate?
My point: time will tell a lot. But, I’m not sure the Clarys of this world will accept any other answer than the one they want.
October 15, 2020 at 9:53 pm
gasstationwithoutpumps
The graphs at http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ are pretty clear. The COVID-19 death rate in US as a whole has been stabilizing at about 2.2 deaths/million/day, but this is due to a drop in deaths in states that have had high compliance with masking and social distancing (like California down to about 1.4 deaths/million/day) with a rise in deaths in states that have low compliance (like North Dakota with over 11 deaths/million/day).
If anything, the death numbers argue for *more* compliance with masking and social distancing, not opening up.
It is true that many of the new cases are in young people, who have a much lower risk of dying. Partly the predominance of young case is because they have been less diligent about avoiding the virus (due to the perceived and real lower risk), and partly it is driven by employment differences—many of the front-line in-person service jobs are held by relatively young employees, with older employees more likely to be able to work from home.
October 16, 2020 at 3:05 am
Stefan Müller
Many employees and young people cannot sit out the crisis, they HAVE TO be active: They have no financial reserves, no home of their own, and not everyone in Germany receives short-time work benefits.
Most older people in Germany are in a very good financial position (“golden agers”).
The Covid measures, however, have only younger people to cope with: Prohibition to practice a profession, unemployment, ban on education, quarantine of children, reduction of immense debts, recession. There is no solidarity. Politics must ensure that ALL sections of society must make an effort and contribute to a solution.
October 17, 2020 at 5:55 am
Michelle Haskell, PhD
I am disgusted with all the nonsense written here. We have come to a point where egos rule what people say and how they act. True science is out of vogue.
October 18, 2020 at 8:15 am
Professor Lockdown
So he was off by a few thousand and he’s a dangerous lunatic and yet the model we’re operating policy from (Neil Ferguson) was off by HUNDREDS of thousands and he is not a dangerous lunatic.
Makes total sense. Sound logic.
October 19, 2020 at 11:10 pm
Downwithantivaxxerz
Mr. “Professor Lockdown”
Before you complain about someone else’s mistakes, please remember, in Israel he predicted there would be no more than 10 dead so no need for lockdown.
There are now 2,263 dead.
An error of 22630%
October 24, 2020 at 9:30 am
fromoverhere
The conversation here is how WRONG Dr Levitt was.
On May 10th he said that in Ireland it would “burn out in 2 weeks” (150 cases a day and falling…at that time).
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/nobel-scientist-predicts-virus-will-burn-out-in-next-two-weeks-39194015.html
They have been over 1,000 new cases a day (Oct 24, 5 months later) and they are seriously scrambling to contain it now.
There is nothing “almost right” or “at least better than Ferfuson” about that totally false prediction.
He was equally wrong about Iran, Israel, and the UK.
Holding him up next to a bad-researched prediction the other direction cannot save him.
He was seriously wrong and should admit it.
October 24, 2020 at 9:55 am
fromoverhere
Hey P Lockdown,
I think all of Ferguson’s predictions were “if nothing is done.”
Kinda silly to hold them up to Levitt who basically said Israel does not need to do anything drastic….just a little distance for now, no nightclubs. He said, “the Jewish state was not on the world map for the disease.”
He clearly said, in many publications and many ways that Israel would not be affected by this virus.
No one says he is a lunatic. Just wrong.
No one says he has to give his Nobel prize back. But he should stick to his field, that’s all.
It is easy to imagine that individuals and countries made policy based on Levitt’s very wrong predictions… and that, I’m afraid is a shame.
October 20, 2020 at 7:06 am
Nura
In israel Over 2200 deaths and that is with 2 long full lockdowns!
September alone 1000 corona deaths.
August already 15% excess death rate than year before.
Imagine what the death rate will be with no lockdown , no masks…
I don’t support lockdown but what happened definitely indicates a big mistake in the predicions
October 22, 2020 at 6:03 pm
Tim
Levitt was wrong. Fergusson was wrong.
Why?
Because it doesn’t matter what code you use our how you use it. You cannot predict the future. Epidemiologists seem to do nothing but trot out peudoscientific models. Real science is testing real world data in a repeatable fashion with tight constraints.
Look at lockdowns. I googled “evidence to support lockdowns”.
This article was in the top 10
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-lockdowns-successful-evidence-from-around-the-world-2020-4
In that article the claim “Overwhelming evidence suggests that lockdowns help contain coronavirus outbreaks and prevent additional deaths” is made.
First article of their overwhelming evidence is a paper that suggests that 200k hospitalizations were saved in Italy by lockdowns.
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/19/10484#sec-2
This paper is a joke. The have a long list of assumptions in their models. Anyone of those is wrong results change.
Perversely, they have real data including a chart that shows when control measures were imposed but make no attempt to analyse it. There is no discernable effect in curves after 2 weeks of restrictions (and incubation period is 5-6 days). What do they say? Of course, the effects will be seen “later”. They already believe lockdowns work the confirmation bias is breath taking.
Rather than explaining why there is no effect in the real world they go away make a model of “the Italian covid outbreak” and then by tweaking there model state 200k hospitalizations were prevented.
What utter garbage. Chaos Theory makes clear the impossibility of predicting the future. Their model does not come within a fraction of a percent of simulating the real world. In the real world any one of a billion factors could affect the virus. Their clumsy estimation has no value. If the meteorologists can’t accurately predict the weather 5 days from now with trillions of dollars spent, far more sophisticated models and far larger data sets how do these charlatans expect to be able to model their way out of a cardboard box?
The world is random and uncertain modelling cannot account for that which is why it has been so incorrect. They should go and conduct some real science and stop trying to scare people.
October 29, 2020 at 10:06 am
fromoverhere
@ Tim…. I dont get your point.
The point of this article is that Levitt was wrong and many people based their protocol on his false “findings” and predictions.
In stead of admiting it, he and his group trot out, “no, we meant XYZ…”
So, yeah…you are right….Levitt was wrong.
October 29, 2020 at 11:35 am
Tim
Yes Levitt was wrong in these predictions I would not argue anything else and the author here makes a sound argument on that.
But all epidemiologists / modellers / forecasters have been wrong with their predictions all the way through. This is completely unsurprising, something observed in meteorology and financial forecasting all the time.
My point is that one cannot accurately model the world as it currently is, nevermind the future. The universe is too complex and there is too much we do not understand.
Yet the media continues to report modelling as if it is a legitimate branch of science with useful out comes. Good science should he repeatable, should be based on observation, should have a control, and should allow a scientist to make predictions in the real world. Epidemiological modelling does none of these things. Epidemiologists seem to have decided that because it is too difficult to test things in the real world, they should use a laughably simplistic shadow world to make a bunch of assumptions that give results that offer no real predictive value. This is similar to the “efficient market” rubbish in economic theory. There is no homo economicus who always makes rational economic decisions all the time. No homo epidemiologicus either who always washes hands, covers their mouth when coughing and observes social distancing. It’s nonsense to believe humans act like this. Bit their models are based on such assumptions.
There is zero coverage by the media on this. No articles state “professor X, states that if we do not do y, z will happen, but professor x’s model is a gross simplification of the universe, professor X has been outrageously wrong in the past, and there is a legitimate branch of science (chaos theory) that is observable and gives predictable randomness, that states professor x’s model will almost certainly wrong because 99.9999% of the things that effect professor x’s model outcome aren’t even in his model.
Nevermind the fact that professor X, can happily work from home and has an incentive to report worst case scenarios (media exposure / relevance for his field that would give better funding and attract more and better students).
The most vulnerable in our society (the poor) do not have these luxuries. But they will suffer the most as always. This is immoral.
Experts / scientists are human they are subject to all the failings of you and I. Yet scientists are treated as if every word that comes out of their mouths is science (when much of it is opinion and guesswork) and that somehow scientists have some sort of clinical hyper rational mind that is superior to yours or mine. This is not the case.
Yes Levitt was wrong absolutely and should be held to account. But he is in bloody good compamy in this debacle. If Levitt is held to account so should Fergusson and the rest of the comical buffoons with their outlandish (and incorrect) predictions.
November 13, 2020 at 9:14 am
fromoverhere
Hey Tim,
Please state specifically what prediction Fergusson made. I’m not arguing; I just wanna see the one(s) you are referring to.
Levitt’s we know about (“only 5 people will die in Israel”) so he should be run out of the prediction business.
What are the other predictions made? We they made with the “if we do nothing” disclaimer?
November 13, 2020 at 6:16 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Hey fromeoverhere
No worries mate you are welcome to argue. We should argue / discuss / debate what we are doing in response to covid. I am happy to be proved wrong on things as long as things are discussed openly. This is simply not happening in the mainstream media.
There is a good summary of Fergusons various poor predictions here https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/six-questions-that-neil-ferguson-should-be-asked
The Spectator is one of the few bastions of mainstream media that actually remains critical (as in critiques) and does not consist of wokewashed, fear mongerers trying to push sales through fear.
John Ioannidis has been critical of much of the modelling and is far from a conspiracy theory nut job. The international institute of forecasters were clearly unimpressed with Fergusson enough to invite him to post on their site:
https://forecasters.org/blog/2020/06/14/forecasting-for-covid-19-has-failed/
Lots of detail on how crap his models are. But as I say they are all crap, it’s not because the scientists are bad, it’s because the real world is so complex.
Upsala University used ICL modelling to predict what would happen in Sweden. They were screaming for lockdowns and said the Swedish stance was suicidal. You can see the charts here:
https://hectordrummond.com/2020/05/05/the-swedish-version-of-fergusons-model-turned-out-to-be-hopelessly-wrong/
Note that there are currently just over 6000 deaths in Sweden. Upsala university predicted 26000 (by July!!) under THE MOST STRICT lockdown conditions. The UCL “no preventative action” models were out by about 1500%. What predictive value can that much error have?!
Ridiculous. Yet the media and politicians continue to trot out models.
What is worse is this sort of modelling is used to “show” that lockdowns work. I googled “scientific evidence that lockdown works”. I chose this article from the list:
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/coronavirus-lockdowns-successful-evidence-from-around-the-world-2020-4
And went to the first evidence link that went to this paper “showing” lockdown prevented 200k hospitalisations.
The paper is here:
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/19/10484
And it is nonsense. It shows nothing in the actual real world.
All they did was make a “counterfactual Italy”, that is they made a little computer model of the Italian outbreak and then said look what happens with no lockdown we see 200k more hospitalisations.
This is sooooo absurd!! First of all their model will not even be the vaguest shadow of the real world. Chaos theory is unequivocal on this. We have nothing like the complexity of programming and computing power to accurately model an outbreak in a human population. It is just tooooo complex. There are thousands of assumptions and millions of things that will affect the output (up or down) that will not be in there. That’s the first absurdity.
The second one is that they are starting with the assumption that lockdown has an effect. So effectively they are stating “to find out if lockdowns work, we assume they do work (although provide no real world observational data to show that they do) and model a world where lockdowns did not happen and look, we see there would have been 200k more hospitalisations in that counterfactual world. Therefore lockdowns work.
I mean. WTF! Come on! This is like a Southpark episode!
I wonder if the business insider writer Aria Beinx even read this paper? Did she apply any critique to it? I mean you don’t need to understand the math or the science it is clearly ridiculous.
Surely if lockdowns work, you will see inflection points in roughly the same part of the same charts everywhere. They may have stronger or weaker affects depending on a myriad of factors, but there should be an observable, measurable and repeatable effect.
That is what science is. Observable. Measurable. Repeatable. I’m big on science. It’s just that none of this looks much like science.
Instead we get more models although chaos theory tells us they are worthless (their models WILL be wrong), and the actual observed real world data, says they are worthless (their predictions were badly wrong), and we assume things are correct based on the same models (ie that lockdowns work you can see in the model plots; the cases crash!) and then we use further models to “show” that the things we assumed in the other models work. We assume. “sigh”
I mean it’s kind of funny if it wasn’t so terrible for so many people. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I think cry because I have kids and they will be paying off all the debt used to fund all this insanity.
This is really, really dangerous. Epidemiology is showing itself to be a pseudoscience just like economics with its “efficient markets” (more modelled nonsense). And we have done colossal damage to our society because of it.
And how much faith will science have lost when people finally realize what has happened? That is almost as dangerous.
I don’t know what you understanding of chaos theory is but this is a great podcast on it and it’s easy to understand whatever your scientific background:
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-stuff-you-should-know-26940277/episode/how-chaos-theory-changed-the-universe-29467341/
Everyone should politician and media pundit in the world should have to listen to this podcast before they can punish us with these ridiculous models.
All the best.
November 13, 2020 at 9:55 pm
fromoverhere
Tim,
You said…. (sarcastically)..
“Wow. And that was just a couple of years ago. Did we have lockdowns to flatten the curve then, I can’t remember?”
Of course not…but isnt that to some degree the point?
I mean 60,000 – 110,000 people cramming every week-end into hundreds of US football stadiums (not to mention gyms, arenas, rodeos, concerts, theater, etc ….and we only had that bad of a flu year (even with all the in-your-face breathing, an no — not one — precaution taken).
Meaning: If we had overrun hosptials EVEN WHILE trying to stop it by cancelling everything, then you would have a point. But we did nothing…and only had that much flu ….and only for that short of a time.
Many people think Sweden tried to “ride it out” (like we do with the flu and your example). But they did NOT. They cancelled/ closed a ton of stuff and still got hit harder than any previous flu year (and much, much harder than the other Nordic conuntries. And now they are talking about doing some more
https://fortune.com/2020/11/04/sweden-restrictions-winter-covid-cases-rising/.
No one is even close to treating this with the normalcy that we lived during that bad flu year, and yet it is wreaking much more havoc than the flu that year.
But …we digress. This article is about wrong, mega-wrong Levitt, who said even with no restrictions (or simply warning people) this would not kill more than 5 people in Israel. He pilloried the Israeli govt for doing any strong measures since they were not necessary (“this is not gonna hit Israel”).
Sure… let the 4.5 million annual tourists (from every part of the globe) come to Israel, he implored them….. “this epidemic will not come here.”
Israel has 2700 dead and 300 critical and 500 new cases a day—even while taken every measure the people can tolerate. That allows us to say that his was junk science.
Did people err in the other direction? Indeed! But that was not the intention of this article or many/most of the comments.
November 14, 2020 at 6:08 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Hi fromoverhere
Thanks for your reply.
To answer your question in short. No. I do not believe it is the point.
You seem to be doing what the epidemiologists do. An epidemiologist might say “60k people will die if we don’t intervene” and then he or she may “touch wood” to ensure it does not happen. If it doesn’t happen, do we say it was because he or she touched wood? Or if they didn’t touch wood, would the epidemiologist be blamed if 60k people did die? I would hope not. I would hope we did some better inquiry into what was really happening. Where is this inquiry?
You are trying to equate correlation with causation although actually there is no correlation (many countries that entered lockdowns were already seeing peaks in infections and deaths. You state “well we did all this stuff and look how bad it was therefore it proves it would have been worse if we had done nothing”. I mean really? Surely you are smarter than that?
I look out the window. It is raining. I note that people have umbrellas out. Ergo I postulate that umbrellas cause rainfall.
That is not a scientific statement. That is an assumption based on a sort of correlation, with no supporting evidence. Which is what you provide. And so do the epidemiologists.
By stating, in effect “imagine how bad it would have been if we had done nothing” nothing is what you add to the discussion. You are effectively doing what the epidemiologists do. You are making an assumption. You are assuming that if there were no lockdowns things would have been much worse. You provide no evidence. Neither do the epidemiologists. They make their evidence up in models, which themselves are basically giant assumption programs. They attempt to prove assumption by using assumption. That is why this is so absurd.
Making an assumption is the first step in science. Now your assumption / theory / hypothesis must be tested. And it must work in the REAL world. Not just in some crappy computer simulation.
That is the issue here. We have a wealth of REAL data on lockdowns we have done them all over the world. We don’t need models to test them we just need to look at what has happened.
And when we look, we see very little evidence that they made any difference in “flattening the curve”. And nothing like the “evidence” that came from the modelling, where the curves were smashed when you introduced lockdown. Look at ICL models of what happens when you introduce lockdown to infection curves. The curve slumps. Why then in the real world has that never been observed anywhere?
This is one paper using real world data but there are a growing body: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1
I have already shown you the model predictions for Sweden. But we have real world data in Sweden. The models predicted 400%, more deaths as of three months ago, if the Swedes had locked down hard. Yes, the Swedes were cautious it was not just business as usual. But there was no lockdown. Cafes, bars, restaurants and schools they all stayed open. And look at the death rate currently in Sweden. It is very low. Nothing like what it was in the first season of covid. It would seem their “in this for the long run” plan is working ok. They are looking at 5 or 10 years, which is sensible. Everyone else just looked at what was right in front of them, panicked and through science and rational out the window.
And this post is not just about mega wrong Levitt. The post states in the heading “lethal nonsense” and at the end of the first paragraph the author states “this hoax risks lives”.
To single out Michael Levitt, state that he is engaged in a hoax, that is costing lives, because he made incorrect assumptions seems very unfair to me. And that is my point, unequivocally he was wrong, but so are all the other modellers. All the points this author makes would equally refer to most of the predictions made by various scientists throughout this nonsense. Why has he singled out Levitt? And why has he assumed that a more stringent view of the outbreak is more dangerous then a less stringent? What is that based on?
Lockdowns cost lives as well. There surely needs to be some burden of proof of efficacy for such a disruptive action as a lockdown. An equal and opposite position of the authors position might be “that Michael Levitts hoax is costing lives by making people flippant about covid” is that “epidemiologists and politicians have cost lives by scaring people into accepting lockdowns, mass masking and other unproven pseudoscience”. Which is true? Which one costs more lives?
Where is the evidence that lockdowns flatten curves and save lives at all, never mind that they save more than they cost? I have been looking I have read many research papers and I have seen no real world evidence anywhere. Just more modelling. Happy for someone to give me some actual scientific evidence.
As for my sarcastic comment. Please forgive my exasperation but it is the same half rsed arguments over and over and over. The person who posted that comment was trying to say covid was flooding hospitals as if that was something unusual, some “proof” that it was unusual. But it was only unusual to him as he had not observed it before (or bothered to check if this was something that happened often). Actually, it happens all around the world, every winter. It is in fact not unusual. That is why I made that comment.
People say what about “long covid”. Yet there is long flu, people who have weakness/aches and some symptoms for many months. “But covid attacks the brain”. Flu attacks the brain. Or at least both of them can end up in the brain and cause an immune response which can cause brain damage. Same for lungs, kidneys and liver. Feel free to look any of this stuff up.
Comparison to flu is far more accurate than any of the modelling. Yet that is regarded as “conspiracy theory” and can get you banned.
The symptoms are similar. The mortality rate is similar. The most susceptible groups are similar. The vectors for spread are similar. They are both clearly seasonal. Yet we are constantly being told this is something new and unusually dangerous.
The ONLY unusual thing about this outbreak has been the fear, panic and over the top responses from government, spurred on by an uncritical over reliance on spurious pseudoscience.
This will damage the poor, damage civil liberties, damage the environment (billions of pointless plastic facemasks that also do not appear to do much according to 40 years of real science) and possibly worst of all, hugely damage the reputation of science. What happens, when a truly nasty virus comes, something with a mortality rate of 5 or 10% across all age groups and health types, something that will result in hundreds of millions of deaths? How many people aren’t going to listen because of this giant over reaction?
November 17, 2020 at 1:50 pm
fromoverhere
TH,Thanks.
I’m missing your point. But first about me. Homeschooling father of a big family and vaccine skeptic. In theory, I should (in light of my politics) be siding with you all the way and be pooh-poohing this virus.
So…today…Thailand had just 3 cases (there is a lot of ink spent on their location in the Mekong River Delta that may act as a deterrent). How do they know they had 3 cases today? They came in sick or got a positive on a test.
What do we do historically with people who have the flu? Nothing. What does Thailand (and EVERY other country in the world) do with those three new cases? Isolate them, and go find all of their friends and family and quarantine them too.
They could say, “Three cases, that is nothing!” But they dont want a week later the family and friends to come in sick and two week later their family and friends. They are clamping down so Thailand doenst look like Myanmar with 1600 new cases a day.
I travel a lot (or did). My colleague recently had business in Thailand. He could not fly directly to the city he wanted….all travel is routed through Bangkok. Then he was automatically put into a hotel for 2 weeks. He could not leave the room. He was tested for temperature twice a day (yes twice), and virus tested three times (arrival, middle, last day).
Then he was cleared for release with a tracing app and mask-mandate.
Do countries do this with the flu? What? Are you kidding?
You say…. “Surely you are smarter than that?” Tell that to Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, Europe, etc. I cannot do personal visits in many European countries because they require pre-testing, doctor’s proof, downloading a tracer app, and quarantine upon arrival (or flat out ban me).
Surely you are not saying that anyone ever did anything like that with the flu. So why in the world are you comparing the two?
Even Sweden closed their borders in March. Surely they are smarter than that says TH! Surely they will see there is no science behind closing your border. Nah…. They closed them and cancelled most flights (SAS personnel were retrained in the medical field to handle the many cases).
Umbrellas? I missed your point.
You said we provide no evidence. Hard to prove a negative. You cannot prove whether a person will get wet with rain if he goes outside, but you certainly can say he wont get wet if he stays inside—- which is what Sweden (and every other country did).
Then along comes TH to say it was silly and unscientific for Sweden to shut borders.
You say: “Cafes, bars, restaurants and schools they all stayed open.” Nope. Closed were high schools and universities, theaters, churches, stadiums and anywhere else there could be more than 50 people. That was their max: 50. Why? …. What was the science behind 50 people? No science. Just had to pick a number.
((Oh, and BTW, in Sweden you are not allowed to keep your kid out of school. They have to go!! Talk about civil liberites!!))
You can say it is stupid to say “Imagine how bad it will be if we dont…” but that is what every country in the world did (including Sweden) when it shut borders or buildings.
You— yourself—- draw attention to Sweden’s death rate? Really?
Per million:
Sweden: 615
Denmark: 132
Finland: 67
Norway: 55
I do not believe in lockdowns and I tell my mostly-adult children to live their lives and that this is a long haul and the new distance-normal.
Friends, good friends, of ours are dying or have died from this (not just “with it”). Still I dont want lockdowns, probably for different reasons than you (you may think the virus is no big deal).
You said, “And this post is not just about mega wrong Levitt.”
I am not sure we are reading the same article. The title is:
The lethal nonsense of Michael Levitt
I am not sure what “seems very unfair” to you.
Why the author singled out Levitt can only be stated by him, by I am glad that he did. Many, many people (dare I say governments) set their minds and policies based on Levitt and he has not bothered to retract (that I know of).
That is one good reason to write about him.
You want to bring in all the other modelers and say —in a way —- he is not wrong cuz everyone was wrong. You might need to write your own article on that. This one is about the lethal nonsense of Michael Levitt.
You said about the flu:
“The mortality rate is similar.”
“They are both clearly seasonal.”
The CDC says that in the US in 2018-2019, the flu killed 34,000.
The CDC says that in the US in 2019-2020, the flu killed 22,000.
It does not take much research to see much bigger numbers than that from Covid (and keep in mind, that was with the cancellation of every huge gathering, sporting event etc etc).
But you are perhaps someone that says that cancelling things made no difference (“where is the proof?”) and someone that says “they only died ‘with’ covid, not ‘from’ it.”
I lived most of my adult life in Europe. Italy had a football match (soccer) with a Spanish team. Thousands of Spaniards went to Italy for the match. Then Spain had thousands of cases. Call that anecdotal science if you want, but it seemed it was enough for countries to crush their own economies and risk losing face for. The UK tried the Swedish route but the UK is 11 times more densely populated and a lot more central to Europe so it was quickly overrun.
I’m not very green…but your silly idea of “plastic” facemasks (ever seen one) ruining the environment pales in comparison to the gazillion of gallons of fuel not burned during this time (and airplane plastic cups etc) —- best try another tack on that.
Damage civil liberties. I agree with you on that. Which is why I say no lockdowns.
This story aint over yet and looks like this is more than the flu. Time will tell…. but again …the article is about the lethal nonsense of Levitt.
November 18, 2020 at 3:10 pm
fromoverhere
Sweden just lowered its number for people to gather to 8.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/sweden-toughens-up-coronavirus-rules-as-infections-and-deaths-rise.html
“This is the new norm for the entire society,” Lofven told a news conference, Reuters reported. “Don’t go to gyms, don’t go to libraries, don’t host dinners. Cancel.”
I wonder if he is basing this on Levitt’s “science”?
December 1, 2020 at 5:05 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Hi fromoverhere
In response to your other reply:
I am absolutely not a vaccine sceptic. If vaccines don’t work than where is small pox? Why aren’t there any people in the west with Polio anymore? The science of vaccines is very sound although there is variation on the efficacy of individual vaccines.
I certainly do not “pooh pooh” the virus. It is real and it kills. But many things kill. As a society we have to balance that with many other considerations.
I am unsure of what your Thailand example means. They also are clearly overreacting to the coronavirus.
According to this study influenza kills about 13500 people per year in Thailand https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4605410/
that’s about 3.4% of their deaths although that data is estimated. No they didn’t lock down for that but 13500 is a lot of deaths right? Why did they not lockdown? What are they expecting to happen in Thailand with coronavirus given that in one of the most recent bulletins from the WHO (October 14th), authored by John Ioannidis he gives a IFR of 0.23% but expects that it could be much lower
Click to access BLT.20.265892.pdf
The ten year average IFR for flu in the US according to the CDC is 0.13%. So 0.23% is less than double the average. In 2014-15 (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html) it was 0.17%. So only 35% higher. That is just in the last 6 years.
Is it not legitimate to ask why Thailand goes to all the trouble you mentioned for this virus but not the flu virus when they have much the same affect? And when that flu virus is responsible for 13500 Thais in a single season? Were those people less important or are flu deaths somehow less painful then coronavirus deaths?
That is the point. Why have we gone to all this trouble when we don’t for the flu, when they have very similar symptoms, affect very similar population cohorts, have very similar mortality rate. Much is made of “long covid” but aside from the fact it is very rare, there is long flu in rare cases as well. That is people who experience symptoms months after having had the flu. We are treating covid as if it is exceptional. It clearly is not exceptional so why treat it as such?
I make no comment about border closure and believe it would be effective at stopping viral spread if conducted early enough. It worked in New Zealand and also in many of the Pacific Islands. It is unfortunate that you state that I said something that I plainly did not.
My point about umbrellas is that correlation is not causation. Clearly umbrellas do not cause it to rain. However, if in the absence of other data and experience you observed your first five rain showers you might also observe that people have umbrellas during those showers and might conclude that umbrellas cause it to the rain. This is why correlation is not enough.
Unfortunately our epidemiological friends do not seem to think that applies to them. They assume that lockdowns work as a default. They provide no data showing they do. They simply use models where they assume lockdowns work to show that if they weren’t lockdowns things would be worse. It is NOT science.
Everyone assumes lockdowns work as a default. The media too. Country x had a lockdown eventually infections dropped ergo lockdowns work. That is not science. That is correlating and assuming the correlation is causative.
You statements about what Sweden did are incorrect. They did not close highschools children up to the age of 15 still went to school https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/news-and-press/news/swedish-actions-education-response-corona-pandemic
They did not close theatres they simply capped them at 50 people https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/may/01/cinemas-in-sweden-remain-open-coronavirus-pandemic
I can find no evidence that churches were closed. Cafes, restaurants, bars, shops all remained open.
Sweden’s death rate is not significant. Per capita they are 20th in the world. Around 90 000 people die per year in Sweden, so their covid mortality only represents 6.6% of the yearly total.
Moreover the death rate in Sweden this year looks……very much the same as other years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/
So it looks like all that happened was that covid killed people who would have died this year of something else. This is not surprising as Sweden did a terrible job in care homes (over 60% of deaths). Of course care homes are places old sick and people go to die.
Which is one thing Mr Levitt has said from the start that is absolutely correct. This is a disease that mostly kills people who would have died soon anyway. Trillions of dollars spent to give old sick people a few more months of life.
The average age of covid death in the UK is 82.4. Which is slightly higher than the average age of death full stop (81). So apparently if you are old and catch covid in the UK, you still outlive the old people who don’t, on average.
I think it is fair to compare Sweden to neighbouring countries and ask why Sweden was so much worse off. I don’t have a good answer for that. Some might say “well they locked down and Sweden didn’t”. However, Norway concluded their lockdown was unnecessary and that rates were already falling when they went into the most stringent restrictions:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/norway-health-chief-lockdown-was-not-needed-to-tame-covid
so it doesn’t appear lockdown is the difference between Sweden and Norway. Or at least the Norwegians don’t seem to think it is.
Of course, Peru and Argentina locked down very hard. Peru had one of the strictest lockdowns in the world. An absolute disaster for such a poor country. Yet they have nearly the highest death rate per capita of anyone.
So did Spain and Italy. Spain did 50% worse than Sweden. Belgium locked down and had 100% more deaths.
You give two years flu data in your example. Firstly, those deaths are estimated and that is the best guess. They could have been much worse. Or better. You could have gone back one year to the 2017-2018 season and there are 61 000 deaths (estimated). But the upper range for that guess is 95000! That is a lot of dead Americans. Why was it not sprayed all over every media outlet in 2017-2018? Why no lockdowns and masking? No border closures. I mean they had to set up tent hospitals and encourange people not come to emergency rooms:
https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patients/
Why no real reporting on it in the mainstream at all? The US hit 60k covid deaths around the end of April. But the world was completely freaking out long before then. Yet 60k flu deaths three years ago…..virtually no coverage in comparison to what we have currently. Why?
I take huge issues with the covid death figures nevermind that the flu figures are all modelled so may in fact be much higher.
Why does the WHO have a specific bulletin on how to classify a covid death but does not do the same for flu?
What happens when you financially incentivise things? Same thing that all ways happens:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4897385/user-clip-cdc-director-acknowledges-inflation-covid-19-death-count
One works in a busy hospital. It’s nearing capacity. Someone comes in with flu / covid symptoms. They die. Why not call it a covid death and get more money for the hospital? You aren’t really hurting anyone right?
Nevermind that if you tested them with PCR you might get an infection they had 3 months ago. Or the people who have just been trained to do PCR in the last couple of months might have contaminated the test.
How does a motorcycle accident get called a covid death?
https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report
We aren’t sure….lets just say they are covid deaths:
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-death-toll-dying-at-home-de-blasio-20200408-st3unrzzwncchckjxu4rcrwkiy-story.html
Nevermind the whole of / with thing. Deaths are certainly being over reported, or at least the stringency for reporting a covid death is much lower than a flu death.
Covid 19 is seasonal. It went down over summer and now it is coming back. Just like the flu does every year. And it isn’t as bad as last season because it mostly killed the people who it most endangers.
Flu seasons are about 6 months long give or take there is no hard fast rule. The first covid season is about 180k deaths in the US though. The next one is around 60k so far. I would expect even without a vaccine the third season will be lower still and hard to distinguish from flu.
You know what the biggest danger is to Americans? The fact that they are fat, lazy and eat too much sugar. Obesity is the most common co-morbidity, followed by hyper tension and diabetes. These are obviously comorbidities for heart attack and stroke as well which kill far more than covid does.
In one study 93% of deaths had more than one comorbidity.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765184
People are mostly dying of covid because they are unhealthy. Not because it is some vicious disease wrecking havoc on humanity. Heart disease causes 650k deaths in the US every year and a massive proportion of those deaths are easily preventable. But we don’t force people to exercise, or ban sugary drinks. We allow people to chose their risk there (same with smoking)….but not with covid which kills far, far, less people. Why the double standard?
Covid deaths are a symptom of how frail and unhealthy you already were, not a cause. Lockdowns and masking will not remedy that. Getting of one’s arse and doing some exercise will. So will eating less McDonalds.
But nah lets just have lockdowns that don’t show efficacy in any science I have seen, or wear masks that also show no efficacy in any science I have seen. And maybe focus on Michael Levitts crap predictions (and I agree the author here makes a good case against him) when he is in excellent company. You can go here https://data.spectator.co.uk/city/national and see how abysmal the modelling predictions STILL are in the UK. I really don’t know why anyone thinks Mr Levitts predictions should stand out as especially worse than anyone elses. They are all badly, badly, wrong. This would be unsurprising to anyone if they bothered understanding chaos theory.
Also you have repeatedly said that governments have used his crap predictions to base their protocols around. Which governments? They all seem to be overreacting to me. Even the Swedish politicians are caving despite the fact that their deaths are clearly falling and it may well be the case that their season of covid is already over for this winter https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
December 1, 2020 at 5:25 pm
conradseitz
That’s life expectancies at birth, not at 81… the average 80 year old has three years of life left. And so on. Now I am ignorant but if I can see that error in your screed, heaven knows how many others there are. Lior?
December 1, 2020 at 6:34 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Don’t get your point.
The life expectancy for a person who died with covid at 82.4 (born in 1938), in the UK (if they were male) is 61.9. So they have already exceeded their life expectancy by 20 odd years. And, even with covid they still manage to exceed the average life expectancy of a person borne today (81 years).
My point is that covid is nowhere near as dangerous as portrayed. Your comment just confirms what I am saying.
It was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment to be honest I mean I would hardly mean to imply that getting covid in the UK makes you live longer……but thanks for making my point that covid is not a particularly dangerous, even more clear.
And yet again, I have no issue with Liors point, it is well made and reasonable. It just applies to all modelling not just Mr Levitts.
December 1, 2020 at 7:19 pm
conradseitz
To Tim Hinchcliff: you clearly don’t get my point if you think what I said reinforces what you said.
December 2, 2020 at 1:03 am
Tim Hinchliff
Your point is fair, but plainly supports my point, as glib as mine was. On average. A person who dies from covid 19 in the UK. And born with only a life expectancy of 61.9 years. Can expect to outlive a person born today in the UK today. With a life expectancy of 81 years. So your qualification of my statement clearly adds weight to it as the person born with a life expectancy of 61.9 years clearly has more to overcome to get to 82.4 years, then a person with a life expectancy of 81 years. You may not have intended to add weight to my statement but obviously you have.
It’s a throw away statement anyway and probably the least important thing I said in my screed. If any of it was important at all.
An over reliance on modeling that clearly does not stand up to real world application. That was the important part.
December 2, 2020 at 11:43 am
fromoverhere
TH:
You are articulate and verbose! Nice.
You said: “Why have we gone to all this trouble when we don’t for the flu, when they have very similar symptoms, affect very similar population cohorts, have very similar mortality rate.”
—No country had any way of knowing in January/February 2020 any of the above (which, BTW is not accurate). It is not influenza; it is a coronavirus and our limited contact with them shows they are more lethal than influenza. If you are basing your arguments on them having the same mortality rate, you will make wrong statements.
You said Thailand is obviously overreacting. They depend almost fully on tourism and yet they shut it down (including my businesses and conferences) — simply as a stupid overreaction? The King is facing more unrest than ever as a result of some stupid idea??
I think you take yourself too seriously. Not everything is science, the way you define it.
Sorry for saying you said something you did not say….
You mentioned NZ who basically locked down and locked out their entire country…and yet you say it does not work. Not sure what you are saying. NZ did exactly what you are saying we should not do.
You said:
“You statements about what Sweden did are incorrect. They did not close highschools children up to the age of 15 still went to school…”
You must be a Brit and I am a Yank. That statement of mine is quite correct. It is at age 15 for high schools for us. They closed all high schools —“Secondary schools”. And universities.
Theaters: I did not mean they “closed them fully or permanently.” They limited the number to 50. And now they limit the number to 8.
I would say metaphorically that a theatre or church that is limited to 8 people is closed.
You said:
“The US hit 60k covid deaths around the end of April. But the world was completely freaking out long before then. Yet 60k flu deaths three years ago…..virtually no coverage in comparison to what we have currently. Why?”
You cannot even hear yourself. At first it sounds logical….but what you did was take the worst FULL flu season recently (using no restrictions) and compared it to 8 weeks of death by covid (deaths started trickling in early March). Again, that was the whole season for the flu (with no restrictions) compared to a “doubling every 3 days” (think: line going stratight up with a mysterious new virus, with no end or slowing in site). How silly. Why? Why would you even compare them?
That is a silly as the early remarks “More people die in car accidents but we dont ban cars!” That was everywhere and just about as silly as comparing a full flu season to a rapidly growing (despite people staying home) coronavirus.
Pleeeeease do not bring in the “yearly death rate” idea. So much misinformation going around about that (see the comments to Roger Bacon at the bottom). There is no 2020 death rate yet….and all quarterly death rates will lag and be revised. This death rate idea will be proven wrong….
And besides!!! Even if you could prove the “death rate” idea, you would have to admit that Sweden only held its death rate down by stopping almost all travel, closing borders, and limiting crowds to 8!!!
Okay….I thought you were a serious debater. The one-off (if true) “motorcycle covid” death is a viral internet waste of time. It is just ridiculous to, in any way, associate those stupid mishaps (most of which are corrected later—see the many articles on that) with the worldwide death rate phenomenon. It is childish…. rather, non-scientific.
You say that deaths are being “over-reported”. Countless articles say the opposite! Countries like Belarus mysteriously have many times their normal annual deaths “from pneumonia” —because they refuse to call it covid (because that would show that they are doing a terrible job handling this).
No….their yahoo dicator would not let any football matches be called off, and then when people get sick they find a clever way to call it something else. Imagine that scenario in every dictatorship of the world…. or maybe you trust them?
China (the origin country) only had 86,000 cases? Less than Bahrain with a population of 1.7 million.
Really? You trust them? You have two choices TH:
A. Either China is lying about cases and deaths to save face (basically “under-reporting,” which flies in the face of your “everyone is over-reporting”)….or…
B. China acheived this low number because of their draconian lockdowns (which you say do not work).
You simply cannot have it both ways.
December 2, 2020 at 9:37 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Hi fromoverhere
Thanks again for your detailed reply and your kind words. It is great to have a discussion with someone without resorting to petty name calling or worse still some political spin. The scorched earth that discourse has become is a bigger threat than any virus I believe.
I may well take myself too seriously, that is a fair criticism. I’m working on it.
Respectfully, I take issue with what you are saying.
Of course the two viruses are different. My point is that they act in very similar ways so comparisons between them are valid and are certainly not “conspiratorial” as they are often portrayed in the media. Describing such a comparison as conspiratorial puts it in the same league as “5g causes covid 19” which is plainly ridiculous. Rhinovirus is also a respiratory virus that can cause pneumonia and death and so do other coronaviruses that cause “common cold”. Coronaviruses existed pre covid-19 and can kill. Given that we do not actually measure how many people get flu and how many end up in hospital and how many die (those numbers are extrapolated from surveillance samples), it is difficult to say how many people typically die from coronavirus or rhinovirus. Who is to say that previous outbreaks of “flu” were not actually rhinovirus or coronavirus or at least consisted partly there of? I am not saying they were, but we don’t measure it so they could be. Equally, they could at least be subsets of those that die from “flu” every year.
Covid-19 is just part of a family of virus. We do not have “limited contact” with them as you state we all have had coronavirus infections in our lives, many times over. So we actually have quite extensive contact with coronavirus. About a third of “common colds” are thought to be caused by coronavirus. Much is made of the fact that covid 19 is novel to humans. This is true but appears to be far less significant than it is made to be. As such it does appear to have more virulence in a specific subset of the population (predominantly the old and very sick). I do not question that observation it is clearly the case.
However asymptomatic rates are high. Recovery rates are very high (over 99%). The vast majority of sickness is mild and indistinguishable from a “common cold”. Clearly the vast majority of humans who contract it (greater than 99%) have some form of resistance to it varying from mild to very strong. This seems to involve T-cells but it is unclear how. However, the vast majority of people clearly have some resistance to it and some (children for instance who are exposed to a lot of coronavirus) have very strong resistance to it, explaining their high rates of asymptomatic presentation and the fact that they don’t seem to spread the virus very well. It also explains why infections die out without people necessarily showing free antibodies.
As an aside it was clear that it was not the “next Spanish Flu” in February and March and there were reputable scientists making these points. For whatever reason they were ignored and we rather went with the outlandish modelled predictions of Fergusson et el that have been shown to be stupendously wrong and which I have already discussed.
The mortality rate continues to fall. It was thought to be as high as 5% in February. The CDCs best estimate is now 0.7% but that has not been updated since September. As I said the WHO have said they believe 10% of the population on the planet has been infected that gives an IFR of around 0.14%. John Ioaniddis in a bulletin published on the WHO site puts the mortality rate at 0.23% and believes it is lower. The average flu mortality rate in the last 10 years in the US is 0.13%. These numbers are very close and the trend is clearly of a decreasing mortality rate as we discover more. I fail to see how the mortality rates are not comparable. It may be a bad flu season, it may turn out to not even be that. The data do not reveal it to be anything more.
“Not everything is science, the way you define it.”
This is, unfortunately, a very dangerous statement. If we do not have a similar view of what science is then no one can ever agree on anything. A science definition must fit a reasonably tight bound or else we can never compare things.
From the oxford dictionary science is:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
Observation and experiment are critical to my point. Epidemiological models are a few observations padded out with a large number of assumptions. They are experiment largely based on assumption NOT observation. I would have no problem with that if when applied to the real world they gave accurate and repeatable results (another important tenet of science). But they absolutely do not. 100% wrong is not valuable for prediction. Never mind 1500% wrong! It strongly suggests your assumptions are very wrong. The fact that this has not been discussed more in the media is criminal. We should not place any real value on epidemiological models and I firmly believe their use has caused far more problems than solutions.
My point about the hysteria stands. Every observable point about this outbreak has been seen before. There is nothing new here. Most people don’t think much about pandemics or virology or epidemiology. They don’t study it. They don’t read about it. Even if they wanted to they would struggle to find anything in your average media source and much less so in their facebook echo chambers. People are confusing observing something with it having significance.
In any of the flu pandemics, if we were testing and measuring to the extent we have for covid…..we would see exactly the same patterns. All flu pandemic would look like “the big one” initially. Every winter, the flu starts from a few cases and ends up being tens of millions. Hundreds of thousands of hospitalisations. Tens of thousands of deaths. In the early stages of the yearly flu outbreak It will look like an exponential line going off forever. This is not in itself significant. Observation (as opposed to extrapolation) tells us this. The difference between seasonal flu and covid is that your average person just doesn’t observe the flu pandemic. It’s just something that happens to other people unless they themselves become ill. But every little detail of this pandemic is amplified through mass media and social media to the nth degree. THIS is the real difference between this pandemic and a bad flu season.
I would not have to admit anything about Swedens restrictions. They only bought in the 8 rule in the last couple of weeks. It is disingenuous to bring that into the discussion.
As for the yearly death rates, you are correct, we will see. It may turn out that they are much higher.
However the euromo https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/ data for Sweden (which is a weekly data series) currently shows their excess mortality as close to 0 and even less than 0 and they are only seeing deaths in the tens per day from covid. I do not share your certainty of the outcome of the yearly death figures. I would not be comfortable betting either way.
New Zealand’s lockdown could not have been responsible for stopping the virus.
There is a review paper of it here:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30225-5/fulltext
Like so much of this I find it completely bizzarre. You can clearly see that when New Zealand enters it’s highest restrictions, cases are already falling. Even when it entered level two (which was nothing but the loosest of restrictions barely observed by anyone) cases were only a day or two from peaking.
It is widely reported that lockdowns / masking take an absolute minimum of two weeks to have an effect and more likely three weeks. And that comes from the branch of science that believes lockdown works. I have seen no evidence that they work. But it’s their theory and they say a minimum two weeks, more likely three.
You can clearly see on the graph that by the time any of the level three or 4 restrictions could have had an effect, the New Zealand outbreak had almost completely died out. Weirdly the earliest possible timing of the restrictions having their supposed efficacy, coincides with a flare up in the virus around mid April.
Why did it die out then? I do not know. Perhaps because it was a very warm and dry summer in New Zealand and the virus struggled to take hold in bright sunny weather. Perhaps they closed the borders in time to stop the virus seeding. Travel was already falling drastically anyway so perhaps that, in combination with the border closure was enough. Whatever the reason by lockdowns own logic it cannot have been due to lockdown.
However, the authors of this paper do not address this conundrum AT ALL. They provide no explanation to this problem in their observations. They simply conclude that the things New Zealand did stopped the virus. But how can you conclude such a thing, when the epidemic is clearly well on the wane, long before any of the restrictions could have had an effect?
I simply cannot see how anyone could describe this as anything but confirmation bias writ large. They already believed lockdown worked before they even looked at the data. And their analysis was so bad they did not even address the gaping hole in the lockdown logic.
There were a few New Zealand based epidemiologists screaming from the rooftops that New Zealand should go into lockdown. One would expect that having done that they would view this as a perfect chance to use actual observational data to show how and when lockdowns work, what stringency is required, what aspects worked well, what aspects didn’t. Basically a “how to lockdown” guide based on the experience of New Zealand. I have searched and searched for such science (generally and from the epidemiologists concerned) and have found none. If anyone has such a paper I would love to see it I really would. The paper I referenced above is the only paper I can find on New Zealands lockdown experience. There is this little amusing piece though that “shows” lockdown begins to have an effect in just five days
Click to access Stochastic-Model-FINAL-RELEASE.pdf
How can anyone view this rubbish and coclude anything other than a desperate attempt to make the data fit the theory?
And this from what the mass media widely holds up as the western “poster child” for controlling the outbreak.
I did not compare a full season of flu to 8 weeks of covid. Covid was in the US in December. Which just goes to show how long it took to take off.
In any case my point stands. Covid was everywhere in the news in the beginning of March and even earlier when deaths were much less than 60k, yet 60k flu deaths in 2017/2018 flu season warranted barely a mention. Covid 19 is clearly showing a seasonal pattern. But it continues to be measured as one rolling total. Flu is measured season by season. Cases of covid were observed in December last year in the US. Why do you think it legitimate to compare a rolling total of a seasonal virus to a 6 monthly total of different seasonal virus?
The US is a fascinating case. Because of it’s size it is in effect operating with two levels of pandemic. Some parts are experiencing the virus effectively for the first time like the Dakotas. There, deaths are much higher than earlier in the year. However New Yorks deaths are virtually flat although their cases are significant. That is because they are in their second season of covid and the virus has already killed the most susceptible. This mirrors what is happening in Sweden, Spain, the UK, Belgium and other places that were hit hard the first time around. They all seem to be showing lower mortality rates than first time around.
I don’t know how this could be any more obvious.
I don’t believe it is childish to point out flaws in the categorisation of covid deaths. The motorcycle incident was simply an easy to find and obvious one. There is clearly a lot of debate over covid death counts. I simply have not seen any evidence that shows under reporting aside from excess death data (which you yourself said will not be relevant to year end) or the good old “this is really bad and if the deaths don’t show that, it’s because we are missing them”. If you incentivise reporting with monetary payments it will corrupt the reporting. Of that one can be absolutely sure. What possible incentive would anyone in the US or India have to not report a covid death? Everyone already believes this is the end of days and they receive a payment if it’s a covid death. Do you really believe that is a system not ripe for corruption?
You bring up dictators. I make no comment on Belarus. Dictators tend to be untrustworthy. What else is there to say?
As regards to China I do not have two choices. I have many choices. One of them is to simply ignore China’s data altogether which is what I do. Same as Belarus. China has clearly under reported cases and I see no reason why they would not under report deaths as well. So I ignore them as I cannot take any meaningful data from liars. And not even good liars, blatant, obvious liars.
Wuhans numbers imply a case mortality of 7.69%. This is clearly not correct. The fact that there has been no second wave / second season makes a complete mockery of everything they say. So I discount it all, neither there deaths nor their cases are correct and both may be underreported.
Given I don’t trust their data at all why would I trust that their lockdown worked? And in any case how does a case mortality rate of 7.69% provide good evidence for lockdown efficacy anyway? It is clearly an order of magnitude lower in most other parts of the world, lockdown or no.
Cheers.
November 28, 2020 at 6:53 pm
fromoverhere
This article was written on 21 Sept and the deaths in Israel are quoted correctly here as 1,256.
Today, 28 November Israel has 2,854 deaths with 272 in serious condition.
Because of a series of new restrictions in October the number of new cases is down from 4000 a day to under 900 a day.
Levitt was wrong. Many times.
December 1, 2020 at 11:42 am
Roger Bacon
An analysis of CDC death rates this year in the US shows total deaths are essentially unchanged from 2018 levels. The increase in Covid-19 deaths corresponds to a decrease in deaths for other causes. “It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled,” Samuel Clemens. It appears that this author has been fooled.
December 1, 2020 at 11:43 am
Lior Pachter
Yes Roger Bacon. You have been fooled.
December 1, 2020 at 12:28 pm
fromoverhere
I think that Roger is circulating the erroneous FB post about the comparison of months of Jan-April 2018, and 2020.
That is proven false in this explanation.
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/verify/verify-comparing-total-deaths-in-us-in-2018-vs-2020-to-determine-impact-of-covid-19/501-fda8856c-57c1-4041-9229-ac7fb80a55a1
Again…anyone can circulate a post (false or not) and take it as the truth.
Indeed, I agree that Roger Bacon took a circulating FB post and just passed it on as the truth.
December 1, 2020 at 1:05 pm
fromoverhere
The same news source did an update in October and refuted Roger Bacon’s claims even more.
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/health/coronavirus/verify-comparing-the-number-of-total-deaths-in-the-united-states-across-years/501-2aacbd08-466a-4d17-8452-e059df9aa6f3
I’m not sure it will matter to him or he will take the time to post a retraction. That is usually how it goes: fling some FB post out there as the truth and then move on to the next place to post it.
It took me only a few mins to see if Roger’s claim was in any way accurate, which it does not appear to be.
December 1, 2020 at 2:44 pm
marmico
Lior, apparently Levitt has posted his code to the preprint. Have you looked at it?
Levitt’s last stand was Sweden “saturating” (also known as herd immunity) at 500-600 covid deaths/million. Every prediction he has ever made has been falsified.
Bacon, here is your egg. The US will have ~15% higher deaths in 2020 than in 2019.
December 3, 2020 at 12:35 pm
fromoverhere
TH,
Not meaning to be disingenuous…
“They only bought in the 8 rule in the last couple of weeks. It is disingenuous to bring that into the discussion.”
My point there is that they DID limit to 50 —crowds that had been normally hundreds or thousands. And now they have limited to 8. The point being simply that the country that internet-spredders are STILL quoting as “did nothing and got away with it…” is not a “did nothing” country (and is not getting away with it).
You said:
“I did not compare a full season of flu to 8 weeks of covid. Covid was in the US in December. Which just goes to show how long it took to take off.”
Clearly you were talking about deaths, right? Those deaths are first recorded in early March.
“If you incentivise reporting with monetary payments it will corrupt the reporting.” Is that happening worldwide? Where is that happening?
Here, I missed your logic…
“China has clearly under reported cases and I see no reason why they would not under report deaths as well. So I ignore them as I cannot take any meaningful data from liars.”
You are discussing— agressively promoting— the idea that worldwide cases and deaths are over-reported.
Then….when I submit a substantial part of the world (who under-report) , you say you dont count them. That’s a bit cheeky dont you think? (That’s a Yank using a Brit term).
December 3, 2020 at 4:03 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Hi fromoverhere
I would not describe myself as promoting deaths as being under reported. I believe they are under reported. Others believe they are over reported. The excess mortality argument makes sense. There are excess deaths in various months of 2020 as opposed to other years, there is a pandemic therefore those deaths could be attributed to covid. There is sound logic to that.
However others argue that those excess deaths could be attributable to the impact of lockdowns and people very much being discouraged to go to hospitals so as not to over tax the system. In the UK deaths at home rose markedly during lockdowns. Of course in the UK (and in New York) elderly people were basically thrown out of hospitals and sent back to care homes (something that also happened in Sweden) without tests, many of them to seed outbreaks where they returned. Terrible folly, it beggers belief that people could be so stupid even in an emergency situation. This is a classic example of the solution being worse than the problem as the death rates among the elderly and frail, (that all this hysteria is meant to protect) actually led to more fatalities from covid. Of course it also would have led to fatalities from not receiving treatment they should have received in hospital. They were in hospital for a reason after all.
I don’t know which is true. I lean towards deaths being over reported based on the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between all of the respiratory diseases symptomatically. Flu seasons have been mild almost everywhere this year. Is that because the cessation of travel has stopped the latest flu strain for this year travelling the globe? Or is it that crowded hospitals, harried staff and strained testing systems have meant that someone who came to hospital presenting complications of a respiratory disease are simply counted as covid, especially with the added incentive of an insurance / government payment for reporting it as such?
Perhaps it’s both. Or neither and they are all covid deaths and there are many more hidden.
Coupled with this is the sensitivity of PCR. Even if it shows they are positive for covid it could have been from an infection months ago and they now have a rhinovirus that has killed them. Someone might argue, reasonably, that the earlier covid infection weakened them and the rhinovirus infection finished them. But it is very likely that they were obese, had diabetes, hypertension or some other range of comorbidities that made them susceptible to all respiratory diseases. So what killed them? I would argue laziness, genetics and a poor diet ultimately. As I have said I believe this pandemic is a symptom of general poor health and an aging population in the West. Africa has not really been bothered by this. I guess they have truly serious diseases to worry about like ebola. Massive internal hoemorrhaging….surely not a good way to go. And of course a very young population…..climate may also play a role.
Whatever we think, the situation is complex. And what makes it harder is the absurd over use of mathematical modelling. The models do not encompass much of the complexity of the world. I have thought of a few of the twists or turns clouding things in this post. I’m sure you sir would think of many more. And so would Lior and so would many others. But even if we put all those together and put them in a model the model would still be missing 99.99% of the true complexity of our world. This is why I continually ask people if they are familiar with chaos theory. And why I believe this reliance on modeling is so dangerous to the reputation of science.
And this is why it’s a crime that we have been led so much by modelling. Just look at those winter scenario predictions on the spectator website:
https://data.spectator.co.uk/
Within just two weeks the real data was outside the confidence interval of the most conservative model!! So what does a 95% confidence interval mean? Not much in an epidemiological model that’s for sure!
I repeat it is absolutely criminal that these models are given any credence at all. They simply should not be in the media and anyone who presents them as having any value is clearly a charlatan without a basic understanding of the complexity of the world they are trying to simulate. I find this very alarming.
And it should be noted a vast majority of the “evidence” for lockdown efficacy is based on modelling.
Poor Sweden. I doubt they appreciate you and I discussing them!! I do accept and have stated that they had some restrictions. But they were far less stringent than other countries. Most countries in fact. So while they may not be restriction free, they certainly stand in the least restrictive part of the spectrum.
I do think the mainstream media has been almost deranged in it’s attempt to portray Sweden as a pariah state for standing against the lockdown narrative most of them unquestioningly support.
I mean look at this from the guardian today:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/03/sweden-anti-lockdown-covid-deaths
174 deaths in a day according to the guardians chart (sourced from Johns Hopkins). Yet worldometer shows something very different:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
Worldometer sources a site that appears to be the Swedish Health Ministry. Johns Hopkins does not offer a source. In the Guardian article they quote an announcement of 33 deaths from the Swedish ministry. That data does not show yet on the worldometer source it is only up to 2/11 so it would represent a jump upwards so perhaps it is the start of a new upwards trend. However there is nothing like the 174 deaths in a day data point anywhere on the worldometer data. There are a few days with 90 deaths on Johns Hopkins chart but no where near 90 deaths at any point in the second season according to the worldometer data. Yet they are virtually identical for the first covid season.
What’s going on?!
The Johns Hopkins chart shows an increasing pattern of deaths.
Worldometer shows a decreasing pattern.
I have seen the guardian source worldometer many times in the past. As have others in the MSM. Why Johns Hopkins on this occasion?
I believe Worldometer to be a reasonably reliable source. What are your feelings about worldometer? Am I missing something here? As clearly Johns Hopkins has a good reputation.
You can surely guess how I interpret this disparity (panic, fear, hysteria). Interested in how you read it.
I think we can certainly agree the data is noisy.
Incidentally I am not a Brit, I am a New Zealander, but I take no offense at being called one!
Thanks fromoverhere
December 3, 2020 at 2:05 pm
fromoverhere
TH,
My last idea summarized:
If you are insisting that this virus is over-reported and then say, “I dont count China or any dictator countries; I only draw attention to the silly cases of motorcyles and reports of those who ‘die with it’,” then of course you are going to join the ranks “over-reporters” (sometimes confused with virus-deniers).
But the very fact that you admit that this is a real (and deadly) virus is to satisfy me that at least you acknoledge it.
December 3, 2020 at 4:28 pm
Tim Hinchliff
I certainly don’t deny there is a virus or that it kills.
I just don’t believe that, on it’s own, is significant.
I definitely believe cases are over reported. And I entertain the idea that deaths are over reported and lean towards it…..although I think there are sound arguments that they are under reported.
I think the media have put way too much attention on this generally based on misleading or outright false information largely in the form of outlandish predictions that never turn out to be even close to the truth.
Epidemiological models suck! That is my main point!
December 3, 2020 at 6:31 pm
fromoverhere
TH,
You have me confused now!
I was trying to make the point (since you brought up the “over-reporting” of the motorcycle death) that you are in the crowd of the “Hey, this is all over-reported!”
But acutally… for many it is drastically under-reported (to save the face of dictators and political parties).
December 3, 2020 at 7:09 pm
Tim Hinchliff
Yeah it’s complicated.
There is a lot of noise and I don’t know. I think your underreporting to save face makes sense with despots and the Chinese Communist Party who are completely untrustworthy. Although Putins a bit of a despot and they seem to have a genuine outbreak (inspite of their vaccine!!).
However I think that would apply to cases AND deaths. As mortality rate is a ratio and it is a key measure of how dangerous the outbreak is, does it matter if they are under reporting both? I guess if they are under reporting evenly then no, if they are heavily under reporting deaths but cases not so much than yes it matters as that will give an artificially low mortality rate.
However I think there are clear incentives to over report based on financial incentive and an incentive to make it appear bad. So for instance a hospital doctor has an incentive to over report, because the worse the situation appears the more likely they are to get aid (state, federal or otherwise). And it may really be bad where they are, their hospital may be creaking under pressure. I’m not saying they are making it up or that it is not bad at an individual hospital it may well be (like in many hospitals in winter)…..but an embellishment here and there to push it over the line…..to get a journalist to report on it……to hit a limit where an emergency is declared? They are humans, under pressure. These things happen all the time.
Maybe on the whole it balances out.
As I said the fact that all respiratory disease presents more or less the same and none of the tests actually tell you if the person is showing symptoms or not complicates things still further. They may have had covid 2 months ago. They may present to a hospital with respiratory illness. They may die and be tested and the PCR may show covid. However they may have had flu when they died. How would anyone know unless they were also testing for flu and rhinovirus?
I guess I am conceding that I take the points of both arguments and I cannot say which is true. But I do believe this is a mass hysteria which leads me to lean towards over reporting of deaths.
December 4, 2020 at 9:05 am
fromoverhere
TH,
Some of your sentences above do not sound too “scientific”! Just sayin….
Anyway, on a “humorous” note…some articles from March by people that were basing their predictions are Levitt are quite humorous to see now.
This is about two economists betting if there will be more than 100k American deaths by the end of 2020. The one betting there will be thinks he will lose (cuz the other has Levitt on his side).
https://www.econlib.org/my-bet-on-covid-19-and-why-i-might-lose/
I’m pretty sure that no matter how many deaths the “motorcycle-death” naysayers extract out of the soon-to-be 300k American deaths, there are at least 100k in that bunch!!
December 4, 2020 at 12:41 pm
Tim Hinchliff
I guess he should have stuck to his guns Nobel prize winners are just people.
Not everything I say is scientific. Neither is everything a scientist says.
I am admitting I have no certainty and anyone who admits they are certain about a situation this complex, doesn’t really understand how little we know.
I still do not understand why a running total is being quoted for a seasonal outbreak. I guess it makes for better headlines. What other justification can there be?
If we are comparing running totals then covid has a long way to be comparable to the hundreds of millions of lives flu has taken.
December 4, 2020 at 7:06 pm
fromoverhere
TH,
Yeah, we should just do calendar years. It seems like there would be many more US covid deaths in 2020 than any calendar year of the flu since records have been kept. ((The CDC does do calendar years and covid is crush any flu records.))
But I am curious as to your logic. There were many more deaths in July (60-75k a day) than in any of the earlier months of 2020. So that is not really “taking a summer break between seasons.”
December 4, 2020 at 9:18 am
fromoverhere
When my friends compare this to the flu of 2018, I simply ask them to imagine something with me.
Imagine if right before that flu season someone said:
Hey America, why dont we wear masks for 6 months (and not sneeze on each other and sneeze on the hands we shake)? Let’s cancel most flights, ball games, sporting events, proms, graduations, plays. Let’s close theaters, malls, churches, operas, Broadway, car races, horse races, the (Winter) Olympics, and almost all hotels and tourism, period. Let’s all stay 6 feet away and not visit each other and work from home as much as possible.
I wonder if someone had convinced all of America to do that for the flu season of 2018 if we would have had that “really bad flu year.”
PS. Answer: Of course not.
Whatever effect that “might have had” (yes, not a very scientific statement) seems to be the mitigating effect the various restrictions “may” have had on this bad boy.
December 6, 2020 at 3:34 pm
Tim Hinchliff
But all of that is based on the assumption that all those restrictions have some affect.
There is no evidence that they have an effect.
You state: Answer: Of course not
Why of course not? You have no way of knowing one or the other without testing it.
Your assumption needs to be tested. And the more damaging the potential outcomes of any action the more rigorously it’s assumptions should be tested.
The simple fact is that if these restrictions had an effect you should be able to see them on a plot. You should at least be able to correlate x level of restriction with y level drop in cases after z time. And this should replicate generally across locations. We have hundreds if not thousands of towns and states and countries who have done this stuff. So where is the evidence?
Please share with me the paper / review that you have read that makes you sure this all works. Just saying “of course it works” is not good enough and is certainly not being led by science.
I have not seen this data anywhere. I am very suspicious that I have not seen it because data like that would begin to put this debate to rest. If pro lockdowners had this data why would it not be out there?
December 9, 2020 at 7:57 am
fromoverhere
TH,
The NY Times offers their pictures of the year in their edition today (I’m not a subscriber, but I saw it).
They show Wuhan (11 million people) from above with no cars on the street and explain that when it was shut down all mass transit and roads were shut completely. Stunning photo.
If you are asking for a “paper” explaining the effect of that….you will be waiting for a long time. But the lack of a paper means nothing. Common sense tells you that if you can “stop the world for a day (or a week or month)” you are gonna have less pollution, less transfer of sickness, less crime, and of course less commerce.
The question of whether the pain caused by the lockdowns on the economy (and mental illness etc) was worth it is a legitimate question, but whether they slowed sickness and pollution down is obvious.
You ask for a paper to show how many cases we would have had without any lockdown. That’s ridiculous. There is no way to prove that.
That’s like asking for proof that a man who stayed inside during a torrential downpour would have gotten wet it he had gone outside. No way to prove it after that fact, but anyone with sense would see it.
I think China is (“are” for you Brits) lying about their cases and deaths. But with 1.4 billion people (like India) it would be pretty hard to hide if they had the same cases and deaths as India.
I am NOT for lockdowns. We cannot live that way. But….
Draconian and repressive as they were, it seems clear that the lockdowns in dense, very-populated, origin-of-the-outbreak China had a slowing effect.
I bet you could even find some papers on that.
December 7, 2020 at 12:18 pm
conradseitz
A return to basics– a quote from the Scientific American article on Ioannidis on Nov. 30, in regards to his essay in STAT in March:
“But that was not Ioannidis’ position. In the flood of public shaming, his central focus was ignored: estimates of COVID-19 mortality were all over the map, and without testing a “random sample of a population” and repeat testing “at regular time intervals to estimate the incidence of new infections,” the real answers were unknown. Data, not guesswork, he suggested, should guide public health decisions about interventions such as quarantine, travel bans, work and school closures, travel bans and physical distancing, which had their own risks of harm.”
Seems like a century ago, but really only eight months.
December 12, 2020 at 12:31 pm
fromoverhere
Dr Levitt….
Israel deaths are 2,979 with the 10 new ones today. Sure, everything is political in Israel, granted. And sure, this was weaponized by Bibi’s opponents…..but 3000 dead, and 2000 new cases today, and 322 in serious condition.
C’mon, you gotta admit you underestimated this and sold your “We’re all gonna be okay” snake oil to too many people.
December 20, 2020 at 11:43 am
ThisOldMan
What I think nobody here understands is that when it comes to anything that involves human behavior, you cannot predict the future without changing it.
January 3, 2021 at 11:23 am
fromoverhere
Dr Levitt,
Israel: 3,400 deaths, 49,000 active cases, and 700 serious.
Sure…some would have been pneumonia or something else. Sure, it is being used as a political tool. Sure, we need to live with it and shun lockdowns and big government control.
But are you convinced yet that it is more than you said?
January 7, 2021 at 3:31 am
Quest
Tim keeps asking if/whether lockdowns are effective. I think this is a strawman argument/red herring. If you turn the question on its head, the hypothesis is “Will there not be uncontrolled spread of Sars-Cov-2 if people were to live normally?”. I hope nobody seriously suggests that is the case because that statement is easily falsifiable. It reminds me of the people who keep insisting global warming isn’t possible to prove.
All I’ve seen suggests that SarsCov2 is more contagious than the flu, and even more so with the new mutant variant. The question is not whether the spread might slow all by itself. The super-spreader events we’ve already observed here and there clearly show that gatherings of many people tend to proliferate the virus very quickly.
Without lockdowns, ultimately everybody will be in contact with the virus at some point, and given the high mortality rate in elderly and people with pre-existing conditions (that need not to be self-inflicted), this is not something I’d advocate for. Especially not now that we are starting to have vaccines.
January 7, 2021 at 6:27 am
Maria
@Quest: For example, to vaccinate 85,000,000 Germans, they would have to do 80,000 vaccinations a day for 3 (!) years. Oh, and we need a second dose after 4 weeks and possibly another booster in 2 years. Honestly, what they are doing to children and families cannot be put into words!
Due to all the stress, my husband went from having mild hay fever to asthma. His inflammation levels in the blood have increased 6-fold since March in the lockdown. He now has to take every day cortisone inhalers (for the first time in his life)…. Our solidarity contribution is now exhausted, but feel free to fleece us for another three years….
March 30, 2021 at 2:57 pm
mark
do some research please. there are no ‘superspreader’ events. all disproved. lockdowns have no effect on spread only exacerbate harms. stats show less harm than seasonal flu. go hide under your bed & leave the rest of us alone, sane late 60s like me know we will be 100% taken out by anything other than covid. dear me
March 31, 2021 at 3:25 pm
Question
Disproved by whom? They are real and have been observed multiple times. So why are you interested in spreading untruths?
I’m not hiding under my bed, by the way. You really don’t seem like you understand much of anything, I’m afraid to say.
February 10, 2021 at 2:48 am
Craig Foster
Thanks for this. I always had a hunch Levitt was being publicly fraudulent about saying herd immunity was just around the corner months ago while disparaging other scientists and other, more accurate models. Here we are and he’s still wrong.
March 30, 2021 at 2:49 pm
mark
just love it when some blogger comes out of nowhere & decides to totally trash an eminent nobel laureate for being a conspiracy theorist & daring to question the covid farce. no agenda then? dont spend it all at once son
April 3, 2021 at 12:51 pm
fromoverhere
Mark,
What are you adding to this conversation? Are you a real person or just here to make conservative/ naysayers look bad? I am a freedom-loving, small govt, conservative, and vaccination sceptic, but I still can see that there are 15% more deaths in the US in 2020 than there would have been under normal circumstances. And that while shutting down and wearing protective gear!!
IMO it is better to focus on how big-govt proponents will leverage this virus to bloat the govt than it is to outright deny its existence. You make your position look so silly.
The article is about Levitt….and he was way, way off —even by his own admission now…..